Raynes of Cork

[a.m. raines]

Has anyone found a definite connection between John Raynes Esq and his brother Captain James Raynes, and the Raynes family that lived in Mallow/Charleville and traded in Cork City? John Raynes and Arundel Raynes held a lease with others in Mallow during the early part of the 18th century. Arundel was baptised in Downhead, Somerset 12th May 1668, and married Alicia Salter of Youghal in 1696 (5.4.14 Index to the Marriage License Bonds of the Diocese of Cloyne). He had matriculated from Oxford two years previously (Alumni Oxfordensis Corpus Christi College, Oxford Arundel s.o. EdwardRaynes of Downhead, Som. pleb. matric. 22 March 1693-4 aged 23yrs ) His son John matriculated from Dublin in 1714? Alumni Dublinensis), and Arundel died in 1717 owing Lord Shelborne £500. I have an account from the Busteed papers of his gaming on false dice - very funny . I don't know much more about his son John, but could he be the cabinet maker who is buried in Cork 1749? Arundel was living in Ballyhay on the 1st December 1698 (Irish Wills & Plea's); the same townland the line Sir Julius Augustus Robert Raines descends from were living in.

[a.m. raines]

Here's the account of Arundel Raynes' playing at dice .....

 Irish Wills & Pleadings ref: S.O.G. vol 6 p.8 Jephson v. Woods“Irish Wills & Pleadings”(ref: S.O.G. vol6 p. Jephson v. Woods contains the following: “ Thomas Batwell of ffortlane als Ballyhalla co. Cork gent. one of the attorneys of the Court of Kings Bench says that on the 23rd of May 1698 at Castlemagner at the house of William Barnes -he kept a town court for the then High Sherriff of the said county where there came into the same ,John Ffoulkes and John Chinnery gent. That after your orator had taken the presentments of thesaid Court and discharged the jury - they, the said Ffoulkes and Chinnery with other companycame into your orators company to drink a glass of aile. After your orator had dranke for some timehe bid his man to bring his horse to the doore. As he sat on horseback to go home the said Ffoulkeand Chinnery took his horse by the bridle and said he should not go away and was prevailed on by them to go with them and one Arundel Raines and George Chinnery, brother to the said John Chinnery and take a hearty glass and as an inducement telling him there was a spark in the housethat had some money and would fain play with them at hazard upon the dice. Your orator wellknowing the said Ffoulke and Chinnery to be common gamesters and as your orator has been informed and play most commonly with false dice. They promised if he lost to them or any one elsethey would repay it. He being somewhat in drink and relying on their fair promises went into thehouse again. After the said Raines had lost some money he applied to your orator for the loan of a guinea which he lent him.... It being almost day John Chinnery went to bed when Ffoulke & yourorator played...... Your orator having left £5 or £6 on the table and a large silver snuff box the said Ffoulke snatched them up saying he had won them and so left the room....... After your orator wasgone to bed the said Ffouke, George Cinnery and Arundel Raines went away. John Chinnery in themorning got up and thinking your orator was asleep bid the landlady tell him he should have all hismoney and box sent home the next day which they have not since done.1st December 1698. “(Thursday)

[a.m. raines]

Dublin Registry of Deeds  1711
Record number Volume Page Memorial number Year current deed Month current deed Day current deed Current deed type MS or W Family name Forname s Title Residence              1 8 411 3030 1711 March  5 Lease & Release  RAINES Arundell   2 8 411 3030 1711 March  5 Lease & Release  RAINES John Esq

[tickle]

Hi all

This is a long running saga with some missing connections especially around the turn of the 19th century, and in the early 18th century. Although the spelling of the name does seem to vary between generations and places, I would have thought that it should have become fairly standardised in whichever form it occurs by the early 1800s. In other words whilst it is common to find Raynes, Raines, Rains in the 18th century they seem to become different families by 1830ish. (Note also that the Somerset family also uses Reynes.) Julius Augustus Robert Raines father was Joseph Robert, and his father was Joseph Lawrence Robert 1752 - 1789 who is my 4x great grandfather, based in Cork City. From there back to John Raines and Arundell is more difficult. The implied connection is the  Charleville/ Mallow one, and I think that that connection is fairly safe, albeit that I have not been able to find church or other records to fill in the intervening one or two generations. The John son of Arundell seems to have shuffled off this mortal coil in 1734, and his wife in 1752, having only been married for 3 years (1730). The lines of descent from that source are therefore probably limited to one or two children of that couple. JLR Raines father was John Raynes I believe who may have been the cabinet maker of Cork City who died in 1756. However if he had JLR at around 25-30 he would have a birthdate around 1722-7, if he had JLR at around 20 years old this would fit the John who married in 1730 and died in 1734. There were apparently more Johns which makes it even more confusing, and the following note simply adds to the confusion. Or does it?
[Source: "Gravestone Inscriptions of St Peter, Cork" by R. Henshion. Jnl of Cork Hist. & Arch. Soc Vol xciii No 252 Jan-Dec 1988.]
page 123 note:
"John and Joseph Rains were Timber Merchants in Clarkes Marsh in 1787. The Rains family is widely documented through the 18th Century commencing with John Raynes, Sherriff of Cork in 1694 and proceeding to Henry 1832-77, one time master of the Cork Steamship Coy's 'Dodo' and later Harbour Master of Cork. Among Rains buried in St Peter's are: Jonathon 1746, William 1760, John 1762, John 1767, William Robert 1817. John 14/7/1756 "the Paul Street Cabinet Maker whose death was reported in the Cork Journal the following day."

Do the Registers of St Peters exist?

All the best

Tickle

[a.m. raines]

Hi,

Unfortunately, the original parish registers for St. Peter’s for the period that would answer a lot of questions for us all, were destroyed during the troubles in 1922, but some transcriptions still survive:

http://www.corkrecords.com/PetersParishRegisters.htm

I pass by the church regularly, and will make a point of taking a walk through the cemetery at the back and see if any of the Rai(y)n(e)s memorials still exist and keep you posted:

http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersGraveyard.htm

The Churchwarden’s of St. Peter’s also include Joseph Raines in 1783, whilst John Raines was removed out of the parish in 1784:

http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersChurchWardens.htm

I corresponded with the late David Phillips (he descends from the Raines/Wrixon’s on Ballyhay, Mallow and Cork, and very meticulous in his research and note taking) in the early 1990’s whilst I was living out in West Cork, and brought up the subject of religion amongst the Cork Rai(y)n(e)s’s as it was as relevant then as it is now. If a Protestant settler married a Catholic girl, even if he didn’t convert to Catholicism upon marriage, his children would certainly have been raised as Catholics. Another version of this I’ve heard is that the sons would be raised in the father’s faith, and the daughters in the mothers. Marginal entries often appear in original registers made by the priest to this effect.

It appears that the various Raynes captains and harbour master in Cork City at the start of the 19th century were Catholic. Captain James Raynes spoke Irish, therefore must have been raised in Ireland; his brother John married Teresa Sullivan, 4th daughter of Francis Sullivan decd in 1819 as reported in the Southern Star: Tue 13 Jul 1819 on Monday morning by the Rev. Dean Collins, John Raynes Esq. master of the brigg Hibernia, of Cork, to Theresa, 4th daughter of the late Francis Sullivan of Warren’s Quay Esq.

The Rev. Dean Collin’s was a Catholic Priest very active in supporting the Presentation Convent in Cork and raising funds for school buildings etc.

The point of this observation being that when a Protestant converted to Catholicism upon marriage, they were often disowned and disinherited by their often well-to-do family, and shunned socially. Within a single generation, families went their divergent ways. I have seen this in my maternal Cork ancestry as well.

The Irish Deeds Registry lists for Rains:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~nickred/deeds/search_index.html

John – timber merchant, Cork City, 1778
William – gent, Cork City, 1778
John – gent, Cork City, 1795
Joseph – gent, Charleville, 1771 (Ballyhay is with Charleville)

But for Raynes, and apparently a generation earlier we find:
Joseph Raynes, schoolmaster, Youghal, 1739
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1737
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1742
James Raynes, gent, Youghal, 1760

And finally for Raines

Arundel Raines, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
John Raines, esq, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
Hugh Raines,no place given, but refers to house in Dusncombes Marsh Cork City, 1721
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741

I have a 62 page pdf of various notes and extracts for Rai(y)n(e)s I’ve collected from many sources over the past 25 years, including my own extract of Raines from the original Christchurch registers, and newspaper references as well. I’d be happy to email on to anyone interested in hoping that a fresh set of eyes may unravel the riddle a little more.

[tickle]

Hi again

I  am David Phillips cousin!  David died in 1997 and I have all his notes and have been trying to piece together the rest of the tree at intervals ever since. I also corresponded with a gent called Michael Raines for a while, and he passed on a lot of information. I think you have confirmed my suspicions that the Raynes of Youghal and the Raines of Cork City are two separate families, with different origins. Whether Arundell is the progenitor of the Raines is, I think, likely because we almost have a direct line of succession, but quite how the Raynes fit in, especially in view of your observation about religious allegiances, is another question. Another interesting sideline to the Raines is their intimate relationships with the Wrixon family who hailed from the Glenfield Ballygiblin Blossomfort Mallow area as well.

All good fun!

Tickle

[draynes]

my grt grandfather was a David Eaton Raynes who was born in saint john newbrunswick Canada his mother was a Margaret Morrow born in Ireland abt 1822 her husband  was a John Raynes my grt grt grandfather born as it states on his head stone in st john nb  born in 1822 a native of county cork Ireland  this is are brick wall as no info at all on are john Raynes all i have is he married  Margaret in Saint John nb in 1841 any  help would be nice. thanks

[Sluggy]

Hi,

Unfortunately, the original parish registers for St. Peter’s for the period that would answer a lot of questions for us all, were destroyed during the troubles in 1922, but some transcriptions still survive:

http://www.corkrecords.com/PetersParishRegisters.htm

I pass by the church regularly, and will make a point of taking a walk through the cemetery at the back and see if any of the Rai(y)n(e)s memorials still exist and keep you posted:

http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersGraveyard.htm

The Churchwarden’s of St. Peter’s also include Joseph Raines in 1783, whilst John Raines was removed out of the parish in 1784:

http://www.corkrecords.com/StPetersChurchWardens.htm

I corresponded with the late David Phillips (he descends from the Raines/Wrixon’s on Ballyhay, Mallow and Cork, and very meticulous in his research and note taking) in the early 1990’s whilst I was living out in West Cork, and brought up the subject of religion amongst the Cork Rai(y)n(e)s’s as it was as relevant then as it is now. If a Protestant settler married a Catholic girl, even if he didn’t convert to Catholicism upon marriage, his children would certainly have been raised as Catholics. Another version of this I’ve heard is that the sons would be raised in the father’s faith, and the daughters in the mothers. Marginal entries often appear in original registers made by the priest to this effect.

It appears that the various Raynes captains and harbour master in Cork City at the start of the 19th century were Catholic. Captain James Raynes spoke Irish, therefore must have been raised in Ireland; his brother John married Teresa Sullivan, 4th daughter of Francis Sullivan decd in 1819 as reported in the Southern Star: Tue 13 Jul 1819 on Monday morning by the Rev. Dean Collins, John Raynes Esq. master of the brigg Hibernia, of Cork, to Theresa, 4th daughter of the late Francis Sullivan of Warren’s Quay Esq.

The Rev. Dean Collin’s was a Catholic Priest very active in supporting the Presentation Convent in Cork and raising funds for school buildings etc.

The point of this observation being that when a Protestant converted to Catholicism upon marriage, they were often disowned and disinherited by their often well-to-do family, and shunned socially. Within a single generation, families went their divergent ways. I have seen this in my maternal Cork ancestry as well.

The Irish Deeds Registry lists for Rains:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~nickred/deeds/search_index.html

John – timber merchant, Cork City, 1778
William – gent, Cork City, 1778
John – gent, Cork City, 1795
Joseph – gent, Charleville, 1771 (Ballyhay is with Charleville)

But for Raynes, and apparently a generation earlier we find:
Joseph Raynes, schoolmaster, Youghal, 1739
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1737
Elizabeth Raynes, widow, no place given, 1742
James Raynes, gent, Youghal, 1760

And finally for Raines

Arundel Raines, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
John Raines, esq, no place given, but refers to ploughlands around Mallow, 1711
Hugh Raines,no place given, but refers to house in Dusncombes Marsh Cork City, 1721
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741
James Raines, servant to John Longfield of Longville House, Mallow, 1741

I have a 62 page pdf of various notes and extracts for Rai(y)n(e)s I’ve collected from many sources over the past 25 years, including my own extract of Raines from the original Christchurch registers, and newspaper references as well. I’d be happy to email on to anyone interested in hoping that a fresh set of eyes may unravel the riddle a little more.

Hi. I am new to this site. I recently discovered I am descended from a Mary Raynes (married Jeremiah Hurley) daughter of Andrew Raynes (born 1784) from Cork.

Do you have any information about these people? Thanks.

[mcevoy]

i am looking for some information on the Raynes of Croom, Limerick.  They lived there up to the late 1800's.