1851 Census REQUEST London/middlesex

[spendlove]

Hi Steven,

Many thanks for your reply to my post placed a long time ago.  Since then I have done more
research into this particular Strutt family - unfortunately it turned out they were not my Strutts.

Joseph = Mary Ann Rolfe, was the son of Joseph Strutt - Author and Antiquarian one of his many
                                         books "Dress & Habits of the English People".   HE WAS NOT AN MP

Joseph = Mary Ann Rolfe - was Record Keeper to the Duke of Northumberland.

Sure you know that after Jemima died, John Bird married her sister Rachel Kezia - but did you know
 this marriage took place in Switzerland.  Rachel Kezia after the death of John Bird married again.

If I can fill in any gaps for you please let me know, thank you so much for your reply.  I still have not
solved my own Strutt problem which was a Joseph Strutt born London 25th November 1766, so if
you have any stray Strutts which do not fit your tree would be pleased to have information.

Regards
Spendlove

[kermie62]

Thanks for the response, Sorry I did not realise the age of the post. These strutts are alsonot in my direct line of descent but my Great grandmothers great grandfather was John Valentine Rolfe whose sister was Mary Ann Strutt and was mentioned in his will and we have been able to use this strutt family as a catalyst or carrier to take the family back.

So what you are telling me is that there were two Mary Anns who married a Joseph Strutt the firsst the son of the author and the second is the Recird Keeper to the duke of Northumberland. (Which one of these two is the parents of Jemima and Rachel).
I can also add a third. Mary Ann Rolfe, daughter of John Valentine Rolfe married Joseph Strutt her cousin who was a surgeon. (at the same time, there was Mary Ann Strutt the mother in law, Mary Ann Strutt the sister in law, and eventually mary Ann Strutt the daughter)

The reason  believed he was an MP was that there was liste in an 1818? directory that listed an MP in Isleworth called Joseph Strutt and I have found there have been two and three  Joseph Strut MP's around that time and one of whom was called Joseph Holden Strutt

There have been a numbner of reasons I have been trying to follow this family back. We have hit a brick wall with the Rolfes, both Johns census dfata and the earlier census for mary Ann Strutt show them as coming from Whitechapel but we cannot get a handle on what record is them. The last census for mary Ann was a complete change from the previous census data. Given the close relationship of the Strutts and the Rolfes, I was hoping if we found one we could find the other.

The other question that you may be able to help with is a mystery regarding John Valentine Rolfe. We have what we think is his marriage where he marreid an Elizabeth Smith and in his marriage certificate and his marriage license (which his wife obtained funnily enough). On both, his profession is given as "Servant to Mr Diball". Yet despite being a servant, he later owned significant property, was lsited in a Directory under gentry and left a large amount of money including a groupmof houses and shares according to his will and death duties.

We also know that after Joseph Strutt died, the Strutt family lost there income fairly quickly and the house at Gunnersbury place was owned by John V. Rolfe  George the youngest ended up in the workhouse.  If Joseph Strutt was the record keeper to the Duke, that could explain this, that John met someone through his brother in law.

Any ifnormation you can give would be appreciative.

Yes I was aware of the Switzerland connection with the second marriage. There is also another second puzzling link. One of the Jemima and Rachels brothers was named hamel Ingold Strutt. He ended up in the Prussian navy and also in the admiralty. Ingold and Hamel are swiss names. The family had a habit of nameing people after suignificant people and family so there is some large mystery to be discovered there


Thanks

[spendlove]

Hi,

Sorry, I think I have confused you with my post. 
So this is the tree:-

Joseph Strutt (1749-1802), originating from Chelmsford = Anne Blower  (This Joseph was the Author)  they had:-

William Thomas Strutt 1777
Ann Elizabeth Strutt 1779
Joseph Strutt = Mary Ann Rolfe (This Joseph was the Record Keeper to Duke of Northumberland) they
had:-

George Frederick 1801
Joseph 1802
Mary Ann 1806
John 1807
Jemima 1809
George Younge  1811
Percy abt 1813
Stephen Chitterbuck 1815
Mathew Henry 1817
Rachel Kezia 1819
William 1821
Matilda 1825

I did not include Hammel Ingold Strutt on my tree, because the Mother in the Bpt record is only listed as Mary and on all the other Bpt records she is Mary Ann.   Do you have further written evidence
that this was one of the Children of Joseph Strutt & Mary Ann Rolfe?

Sorry I cannot assist with the Rolfe side, my research stopped when I finally proved this was not
the Strutt family I was researching.

The term Servant, you should not apply the modern interpretation  i.e. cook, maid, man servant,
it was often a term used to suggest an Agent etc.  In which case they would have been educated and have
had there own personal wealth.

Hope this assists.
Spendlove.

[kermie62]

Thanks for the info, it is certainly a help in understanding the family although as always, further questions are simply opened. I used the info you gave me to dfind in google books, the obituary for Joseph Strutt


With respect to Hamel, I will search for some supporting documentation but may I present my arguements

1) I havent seen the original transcript from the church and transcripotion errors are quite common. In fact errors by the original record keeper were quite common as well. I have heard it said that you must assume that every transcriber or recoird enterer is illiterate, drunk, half blind, deaf mentaqlly handicapped or simply didnt care and that is often the best circumstances . In many cases I have found my Mary Ann's recorded simply as Mary . An example is that in your tree below you give Josephs mother as Anna where as family search gives her name as Ann.

2) Hamel was baptised in 1804 at the same church as Joseph Strutt the grandson in 1802and brother to Rachel  in St Andrew Holbourn as was Mary Ann in 1806

3) Hamel was christened 3 Jun 1804. If you look at the ages of the children they all come at intervals of about 2 years except for a 4 year gap between Joseph and Mary Ann and the last two children William and Matilda (however by that time, the poor mother had been having children for 25 years so not surprising that she may be getting tired). Hamel fits very precisely into the middle of that 4 year gap.

Thus I feel by Family history standards at this distqance, I can be fairly justified in including him.

Thanks again for your help

[spendlove]

Hi,

There is an entry for Joseph Strutt B 1749, in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.  Most
people can now access this via the County Library Service on line.

I do agree, that Hamel fits in with the dates of birth of other children and also agree that there
are many transcription errors. 

For my own research, I always try to discover other written evidence to support church records this
far back.  This is why I did not include Hamel, plus the fact that most of this particular Strutt family
appear to have Artistic connections - The Australian Branch, even Rev. John J. S. Bird because of the
wonderful collection of photographs he took.  Just felt that Hamel did not fit in with this trait.

Will be very interested to find what you discover.  As I said these are not the Strutt family I was looking for
but find them all very interesting.

Regards
Spendlove

[kermie62]

Yes I prefer to go back to the original records myself and read the original and to have supporting evidence. It took an enormous amount of work to prove that Hamels motehr was the sister of John Rolfe and that the cousins married. Akll we started with was that we had two records of a Mary Ann Rolfe marrying a Joseph Strutt with 20 years between them.

With respect to artistic talent, I guess the Australian branch didnt get it.  Joseph Strutt jnr and Mary  Ann had possibly one son together (george) although he could have been from Josephs first marriage, anotehr son who died in infancy and a daughter called Mary Ann Elizabeth Strutt. Joseph Coombe from Mary Anns first marriage died in Auckland when he was 40 in 1872, George died earlier in queensland  of snake bite and Joseph Strutt died in 1840. A lot of tragety in my family.
Joseph was a surgeon and his daughter married a John Donald McLean in Australia who unfortuantely also died at a young age leaving her a widow with kids. None of this family as far as I can trace them. The only thing I think my family who is descended from Joseph Coombe gained was the tradition of naming people after improtat persons in the family.

PS to Hamel Ingold I would also add Chitterbuck, I mean CHITTERBUCK?

[kermie62]

Hi,

There is an entry for Joseph Strutt B 1749, in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.  Most
people can now access this via the County Library Service on line.

I do agree, that Hamel fits in with the dates of birth of other children and also agree that there
are many transcription errors. 

For my own research, I always try to discover other written evidence to support church records this
far back.  This is why I did not include Hamel, plus the fact that most of this particular Strutt family
appear to have Artistic connections - The Australian Branch, even Rev. John J. S. Bird because of the
wonderful collection of photographs he took.  Just felt that Hamel did not fit in with this trait.

Will be very interested to find what you discover.  As I said these are not the Strutt family I was looking for
but find them all very interesting.

Regards
Spendlove

I have discovered the proof that Hamel is indeed one of Mary Ann and Josephs Children.

I have an online published book which unfornaately this program will not enable me to publish the link to and which is too long to type by hand that gives Josephs Grandmother on his Fathers side as Elizabeth Ingold, who was the daughter of the Miller with whom Thomas Strutt undetook his appretiship (Married in 1743)

[kermie62]

I have found definative proof of Hamels parentage

I have recieved a letter from the essex archieves of a letter from a Lady Emily Strutt asking Ms Mary Ann Strutt husband of Joseph about her son Hamel Strutt

[Bill1]

Kermie62 and Speedlove
My tree includes John Joseph Strutt Bird and I was hoping you can fill in or provided additional information or corrections. I have Joseph Strutt born 25 Nov 1766 in Ilsford, I have no information as to death date or location.
I have Mary Ann Rolfe unknown birthdate  in Hertford  and a death date of 19 May 1865 but no location.
No location or date of marriage between John Bird and Rachael Kezia Strutt other than the mention of Switzerland   garnered from this thread.

If Rachael married after the death of John Bird do you have any information.

Also missing information of the death of John Bird`s daughter Mira Ann.
Have John Joseph Strutt Bird as dying in 1906 but actual date and location questionable.

Thanks for any and all help
Bill1