O'Byrne - Leitrim to Glasgow.

[plays54]

I have previously posted on the Ireland General board looking for information on the family O'Byrne.

In the main I have a lot of detail on the O'Byrnes after they moved to Glasgow - to Partick for shipbuilding.

My gg grandfather was Michael O'Byrne who married Elizabeth Duffy in Glasgow in 1853. Census records show that both Michael and Elizabeth came from Ireland. When I originally joined RootsChat I didn't have a clue where. Recent postings and research on another board has produced the following.

Michaels death record'shows father and mother as Patrick O'Byrne and Ann O'Byrne m.s. Murray.

I have since come across a Peter O'Byrne and Sarah Rooney who also married in Glasgow in 1863 and originally they came from Ireland. They also lived in Partick. Peter's marriage record shows father and mother as Patrick O'Byrne and Ann O'Byrne m.s. Murray.

Both Michael and Peter worked in the shipyards as caulkers. They also lived at the same addresses or in the same streets in Partick. However their marriage dates are about 10 years apart and their year of births 10-15 years apart.

Michael had a son named Patrick who died as a young boy and also named one of his other sons Peter, and another son John. He also had daughters named Mary and Margaret.
Peter also had daughters named Mary and Margaret.

More recently I have come across a John O'Byrne and Catherine Neilsen/Nelson who married in Leitrim Ireland on 5 May 1859. As I don't have their marriage record details I don't know his father and mother names. However, John and Catherine also moved to Glasgow shortly after their marriage. John also worked in the shipyards and in the early 1860's lived in the same street as Michael - 36 Wilson Street Partick.
John and Catherine had a son on 20 August 1864 and named him Michael.

Earlier Michael O'Byrne and Elizabeth Duffy had a son Patrick O'Byrne who died in 1860 at 34 Wilson Street.

I am convinced that Michael, Peter and John are related or even brothers but no links other than the father and mother names from the records mentioned above.

Can anyone help with the births of Michael, Peter and John.
Michael would have been born around 1830/31 and Peter around 1843/44. I don't as yet have any dates or ages for John.

Thanks.

rgds

[Ninatoo]

Hi rgds,

I wonder how your research has prgressed in the year since you posted here.  I also wonder if your O'Byrne surname has been mispelled as O'brien from time to time?

I have an O'Brien family from Barr of Farrow, Glenfarne, County Leitrim who came to Scotland during the potato famine.  Occasionally the father Thomas signed his name as O'biren...all close to your surname of O'Byrne.

My O'briens moved to the Blackfriars area of Glasgow and became carters and hammermen.  I do have a Mchael O'brien born 1859 in Glasgow and of course a lot of Johns.  Not one Patrick or Peter in the entire bunch, however, which must be unusual in an Irish family, surely! 

Anyway, just thought I would see what you had to say....

Nina

[plays54]

Hi Ninatoo,

I am no further on in solving this one than I was a year ago, however, you might want to read my most recent posting of 3 July 2007 on the Scotland-General board under a post subject "Advice Required". This is also linked to another post I put on Scotland-General on 26 June 2007 headed "Translation please".

After reviewing the marriage and death records for three O'Byrnes in Glasgow around the same timeline I put forward a theory that they were related and sought other rootschat members advice.

From that post one helpful reader found a couple of O'Byrne children from my gg grandfather that I previously did not know about - all because of mis-spelling of the surname on their certificates.

The first two children of my gg grandfather Michael O'Byrne were born before registration in 1855 - the first son was called Patrick after his grandfather in Ireland, but he died age 6. The third child Ann was born in 1856 but has the name of BAIRN on her birth record - the parents are also recorded as Bairn but it is definitely my gg grandfather and gg grandmother. After that the subsequent children are correctly recorded as O'Byrne except my great grandfather whose birth record has him as O'BIRNE - and that is why it took me a year to find his birth record on the Scotlands People website.

I have no data or evidence to support that that my gg grandfather ever came from Leitrim but I later found another couple in Glasgow - John O'Byrne and Catherine Neilson who married in Leitrim in 1859 (as recorded on the Scottish birth record of their son Michael 1864). This couple at one time lived at 36 Wilson Street Partick Glasgow around the same time as my gg grandfather Michael and his family who once lived at 34 Wilson Street. And yet another couple, Peter O'Byrne and Sarah Rooney also lived in this area at the time in adjoining streets.

From the other posts mentioned above you will see that some of Peter and Sarah's children are recorded as O'BYERN, BURN and BYRNE. However, what was interesting for me was that the children's forenames from these families were identical with more than a few matches - and both Michael and Peter had sons named Patrick - same as their father's name as shown on their death records. Also, it appears that Michael and Peter show the same parents names on the marriage and death records obtained from Scotlands People.

Would be interesting to know your views on this one Ninatoo.

Also, should mention that all my O'Byrnes above were ships caulkers and worked in the shipyards in Partick. As for hammermen this job is more prevalent to another family branch - the McCue's from my father's mother side - who also lived in Glasgow at this same time.

Regards,
plays54

[Ninatoo]

Hi Plays,

Well you certainly seem to have done quite a bit of research!  Isn't it frustrating not being able to confirm a link?  I have found a man in Ayr, who I am sure is related to my family there, but I can't prove it!  UGH! 

However in your case I think that two O'Byrne families living right next door to each other in Partick is very telling, as I have found my Irish ancestors living very close to their other family members a number of times. 

Have you tried searching for your family at http://www.emeraldancestors.com/ . This is a subscription site and I have heard it is very good, but have not yet used it myself as I would like to get full value of a month's subscription, and have not yet found the time.

Griffith's Evaluation http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths.php has not one O'Byrne name under Leitrim, but there are three Partick O'Briens.  Similarly there are no McMurrays, but plenty of Murrays.  I wonder if it would be worth trying to cross reference the town names from the Patrick O'Briens with the Murrays and see if it can give you a township (in which both names are present) to look for?  Just a thought, but I would bet you have already tried looking there.

As for the 'translation thread' I agree with everything the poster JAP has said, and I particularly agree that Barclay is probably a variation of Bartholemew.  I have some Irish Bartholemews known as Bartley...not too far away from Barclay if you say it a few times with an Irish accent!

Let me know how you get on!

Nina

[plays54]

Nina,

Thanks for your reply.

I had a look at the emerald ancestors site that you mentioned. All be it for me to criticise the Irish genealogy subscription sites - but in my experience it has been a lottery and less forgiving than the excellent Scotlands People site.

I originally tried the Irish Origins site and my first two attempts produced negative results despite them having only one person with the correct name and birth year  against the selected entries I ended up with the wrong persons. And since you could only make your search based on name and year you did not have too much of a chance of making other cross references to narrow that selection like father or mothers name or district. Within 10 minutes of subscribing I complained to their customer services and good on them they gave me an immediate and full refund.

I then tried an Ulster Origins site, which I must admit is very similar to this emerald ancestors site, and again found I could only do searches on name and birth year - five chances for about GBP 6.00 - you would have to take out a costly annual membership to unlock other options like father or mother name. Again it was a bit of a lotter based on name and year and again I ended up with the two wrong people - the downloaded records certainly had plenty of information on them but still it was the wrong people.

I am therefore very hesitant to try anything on the emerald ancestors site. This research business can be quite costly and although I don't mind the odd lost search the Irish sites in my opinion require you to know more than just name and date to get some success out of them.

My success rate of searches on Scotlands People means that I have gathered a heck of a lot of BDMs relevant to direct family members - I have had several miscalls but that has been due to the fact that I have the minimal amount of information on those persons to begin with.

With regard to Irish, Canadian, Australian or New Zealand ancestors then I can only hope that I come across others through websites like Rootschat. RootsWeb, or GenesReunited with similar name and family interests who are then willing to share their information as I am prepared to share mine with them, especially when there is a family link.

Wonder what our other genealogy friends think about my comments on the Irish sites. It would be interesting to know.

Good luck with your searching.

best regards,
plays54