Author Topic: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871  (Read 9309 times)

Offline Juls

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Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« on: Thursday 13 July 06 10:06 BST (UK) »
Hi to all, I am very new to this list. :)

I am hoping someone can help me with info. on shipping details for Thomas William Downey who I found in the 1871 census for Battersea, Surrey. 203 ?? Road,District 18,Wandsworth Parish, Christ Church.

He was livng there with his father Thomas [aka -Christopher] Downey, mother Sarah [aka Georgina Douny], sister Georgina Cooper [aka Sarah Cooper] ,nieces Eleanor and Rosina Cooper. He was an engine cleaner at the time and his father an Engineer or Engine driver.
 ???What a surprise to find him there as I had been searching for ages for shipping details in previous years as his grandchildren  told me he had emigrated when he was about 15. c. 1867-1868. I couldn't find his family in 1861 census.

Thomas DOB 14/3/1853, Twickenham or Islington, England.I have his B, D, and M certificates.Death cert. states he had been in nSW for about 72 years. He died in 1939. Son-in Law was informant so I'm doubtful re info. being correct.
 I have searched all the sites I know of in NSW to no avail. Helpful people on NSW soc. genealogists lists couldn't find him either. ???

The big mystery for me though,  is that he married Hannah Cansdell, 26 Oct. 1871 in Sydney, NSW and she gave birth to their 1st child  - Rosanna - 22 Dec. 1871.
 ???I feel its cutting it a bit fine to be in England, April 2nd , 1871, emigrate to NSW - marry Oct. 1871 when Hannah is approx. 7 months pregnant. Unless baby wasn't his  ::) or he had previously emigrated to NSW years earlier, went back to family and then came back to NSW. He and his wife Hannah had 9 other children, settling into the Newtown area, Thomas was a bootmaker.

 
Has anyone got any suggestions as this is driving me crazy. There were a few Downeys who emigrated to NSW and other states around that time frame but none of them seem to be him.
I would really appreciate any info. or advice at all,


Thanks,

Juls [australia]

Offline tropicalj

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 13 July 06 10:41 BST (UK) »
Hello there

and welcome to this site

is it possible that he met hannah on board the ship he came out on?


or he met her back in uk and the run away together or something romantic like that?

i will check the census for her  cant find her birth in nsw do you have details for her at all?

regards jenn
When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
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Offline Robert Coble

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #2 on: Friday 14 July 06 02:59 BST (UK) »
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Offline trish251

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #3 on: Friday 14 July 06 07:19 BST (UK) »
Hi Bob

Rosanna was registered in 1872 but she could have been born in 1871 - Some folks (like me) are a little slow to get things done  ;D

Hi Juls

I'll have a browse too - and I have learnt to never believe what the ancestors said about what was done when  ;D

I like the idea of a shipboard romance, but would have thought they may then have married sooner. I wonder if he left Hannah behind in England & she came out to join him?

Trish
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Offline tropicalj

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #4 on: Friday 14 July 06 07:29 BST (UK) »
Hello there

by Juls post
 
Rosanna   was born  22/12/1871  so the birth wasnt registered til 1872

but i did find by sluething that hannah seems to have been in australia for a few years  she has siblings born here

i was puzzled by all the aka for the downey family  is that the case or  as sometimes happens people assuming that that is so an so in the census do you know what i mean

regards jenn

When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.au

Offline trish251

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #5 on: Friday 14 July 06 07:49 BST (UK) »
Jenn

Are you looking at this death for Hannah

20168/1928  DOWNEY  HANNAH  THOMAS E  MARY  NEWTOWN? There are some children born to Thomas E and Mary Cansdale 1858 onwards.

There is also a large family for Edward and Annie Cansdale (probably too late to own Hannah) - and of course I think I found their immigration record when looking for Hannah!

Juls

Do you know when Hannah died? Would her death certificate be more accurate - if she died before her husband, he was probably the informant

Trish
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline tropicalj

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #6 on: Friday 14 July 06 07:57 BST (UK) »
Jenn

Are you looking at this death for Hannah

20168/1928  DOWNEY  HANNAH  THOMAS E  MARY  NEWTOWN? There are some children born to Thomas E and Mary Cansdale 1858 onwards.

There is also a large family for Edward and Annie Cansdale (probably too late to own Hannah) - and of course I think I found their immigration record when looking for Hannah!

Juls

Do you know when Hannah died? Would her death certificate be more accurate - if she died before her husband, he was probably the informant

Trish
hello ther trish
yes looked at that death

also there is some family info on ancestory family trees  but not for hannah she is shown but   just some of her brothers and a sister  no one has done it for her
so the info  shown  says the parents of hannah

thomas and mary  came from kent dont know  when  and they had some kids born here  and they died  here

there was no informant details shown  bugger!!

so it would suggest  what??

regards jenn

When you search for ancestors, you find great friends!
I live in Townsville researching
TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,,
SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent
BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire,
HAIR, Durham,
CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire,
EDSALL,  Cornwall,
MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER,  Ireland.
VAN REYK Sri Lanka
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.au

Offline Juls

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #7 on: Friday 14 July 06 13:36 BST (UK) »
Hi Everyone! :D

I have not long finished work and what a surprise to find all these replies :)Thanks to all of you for your interest.
To answer a few questions:
Yes, I do have Hannah Downey's [Cansdell] death certificate which states she had been in NSW about 72 years which is the same as written on her husband's death certificate.Sounds like a guess to me although Thomas was the informant on his wifes death cert.
They married at the Free Church of England which was probably because Thomas was 18 and she was only 16. Apparently it was a bit of a "breakaway church" [so I have been told] - [Minister was Dr. F X Bailey] and popular with soldiers.
Both her parents seemed to be there as certificate states that father of the bride  gave consent to the marriage and M A Cansdell [mother] :-\ was a witness. Both groom and bride didn't have their ages listed on marriage certificate.
Hannah Downey  died 16 Dec 1928 in Newtown, NSW. I do have birth certificates for 1st 2 children Rosanna and Louisa  so I know for sure Rosanna was born 22 Dec. 1871.
I have noticed that often the spelling of Cansdell has been incorrect so  has been very hard to track.

Hannah's parents were Thomas Edmund Cansdell and Mary Ann Hall who I believe emigrated with son Frederick E. b.c. 1853 [England], Thomas Edmund b.c. 1854 [England] and Hannah.
I have not been able to find anything on their births only that Hannah was either born at Ramsgate,England or Woolwich, Kent, England[according to certificates].
I have even asked for help on the Kent list and although I had many people helping me we couldn't find their births.  ??? I have wondered if perhaps they were registered under Mother's maiden name - Hall as parents were't married til Sep. 1855 at Dartford.
As Jen noticed there were 3 more siblings born in NSW so they must have arrived after Sep. 1855 and before 1858 when son Robert was born. Caroline Eliza and William John followed. Hannah's grandchilden had told me that they thought she was about 3 years old so it fits.

One thing about the Cansdell family I have recently found out thanks to the Kent listers is that they seemed to be quite well off with Thomas Cansdell's father [also Thomas] owning the Hoop and Horsehoe Inn in TowerHill, Middlesex [with many servants listed in census] Possible that they were unassisted passengers to NSW :-\. I have looked on the NSW site though.

As far as AKA for Downey families , I don't know whether they didn't like their names or what! Christopher Thomas became Thomas but was Christopher when he died.
Thomas Downey's mother Sarah Downey and his sister  Sarah Georgina seemed to swap names every census. Its been a fluke to find them sometimes. I haven' t been able to find them in the 1861 census though.
Does anyone agree with me that the timeline is very tight for Thomas to emigrate,"get friendly ;)" with Hannah. marry in Oct. and have their 1st child in Dec. ???
Surely it would have taken the ship at least 8-10 weeks to get to Australia.
Is there any website that deals with emigration from the nearest  port to Surrey or am I way off base.

Thanks again to everyone for their interest. I really appreciate all the help I can get! I won't be around for a couple of days as I am going away. Back next week though.

Juls

Offline trish251

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Re: Emigration from England to NSW c. 1871
« Reply #8 on: Friday 14 July 06 14:16 BST (UK) »
Hi Juls

Now that we know Hannah was here from about age 3 - it does seem strange that Thomas was still in England on Census night and the child was born in December. The obvious conclusion could be that the child was not his, but presumably impossible to know/prove today. I thought in 1870s the trips were taking about 3 months so your 8-10 weeks would be a minimum.

I have had situations where family were listed on a census when they weren't there, so I guess it's possible that the census is incorrect. There are "unassisted" records at the NSW archives - but very few online indexes.

I surely don't have any answers  :(   but will keep looking

Trish

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk