Completed - Syme Family of Preston Pans Scotland

[tidybooks]

Hi Jap,

I did find the 1841 census on ancestry.com and found George and Jane. James Syme and Helen Knox were by G.G.G.Grandparents, their daughter Catharine married my G.G.Grandfather John McLeod and their son George married John's sister Jane McLeod.

Helen

Catherine married John McLeod, so their issue would have been called George McLeod, and according to quote married John's sister. I take it that means John McLeod his father, hence Jane would be his Aunt. Sorry for the confusion, but thats what it says to me.

Tom

[JAP]

Tom,

The quote refers to George SYME marrying Jane MCLEOD.
They had a son George SYME.

And the quote refers to John MCLEOD (the putative brother of Jane MACLEOD later SYME) marrying George's sister Catherine SYME.
As far as we know their children were Murdoch MCLEOD and Thomas Syme MCLEOD - no George or Janet.

There is nothing at all in this, as far as I can see, to connect to an 1872 George MCLEOD-Janet MCLEOD marriage (MCLEOD being, it has to be said, an extremely common name).

JAP

[tidybooks]

Hi JAP,

Thanks for clearing that up, there are 3 threads for similar families, and I am getting rather confused at times.

Tom

[JAP]

Hi Tom,

Confusion? - I know the feeling only too well         

JAP
(Wild weather here in Adelaide - a king tide which is flooding properties.)

[louislou411]

I have been researching for some years the family history of Sergeant William Gunn who was born Achanneccan Farm, Kildonan, Sutherland in 1778.  He served for decades in the 94th Foot & Highlanders from 1809.  In died in 1861 in Durness, Sutherland.  In 1822 at Durness he married Isabella Syme.  She is listed on certificates as being the daughter of Captain George Syme RN and Winifred St Leger.  Isabella Syme is said to have been born in Liverpool.

The only RN officer named George Syme that I can find entered the Navy on 14 April 1804 and was promoted to Lieutenant on 26 Oct 1813 and on 15 Apr 1856 had the rank of Commander.  This man appears to be the same as the George Syme listed at Preston Pans.

As George Syme was about 38-39yo when he married Jane McLeod in 1827 in Edinburgh it is quite possible he was married before.  Does anyone know if his marriage entry of 1827 indicate he was a widower?

Isabella Syme was reputedly born in 1796 and this puts a question mark over Captain George Syme RN being her father.

I wonder whether the Commander William Syme RN could be mixed up in this. He was made a Lieutenant on 6 Oct 1794 and a Commander on 16 Sept 1799.  According to the Universal Scots Almanac of 1800 - disposition of ships are probably thus of those of late 1799 - Commander W Syme LE PUISSANT with 74 guns.  Commander William Syme died in 1808.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

PS  According to O'Byrnes "A Naval Biographical Dictionary" of 1849 -
George Syme entered the Navy 14 Apr 1804, as Fst-Cl Vol., on board the DEFIANCE 74, Capt Philip Chas Durham. After sharing as Midshipman in Sir Robt Calder’s action he removed, in Sept 1805, to the SAVAGE 18, Capt Jas. Wilkes Maurice, on the Cork station.  He was subsequently employed – from March 1805 until Feb 1810 in the RENOWN 74, Capt PC Durham, in the Channel and also in the Mediterranean, where he united in the pursuit which led to the self-destruction, 26 Oct 1809, of the ships of the line Robuste and Lion – from May 1810 unti Dec 1811, the the BELVIDERA 36, Capt Rich Byron and EURYDICE 24 Capt Jas Bradshaw, on the coast of North America – and, from Aug 1812 until March 1814 in the VICTORY 100, VIGO 74, DEFIANCE 74 and ARGO 41, flag-ships of Admirals Sir Jas Saumarez, Jas. Nicoll Morris, Sir Geo. Hope and Graham Moore, and ARIEL sloop, Capt Danl. Ross, all in the Baltic.  Of the vessel last mentioned he was created a Lieutenant 26 Cot 1813.  His last appointment was to the ARAXES 36, Capt Geo. Miller Bligh, with whom he served in the West Indies from 7 Sep 1814 until 7 Aug 1816.


 

[JAP]

Hello louislou411 and welcome to RootsChat.

What certificates do you have which indicate that Isabella (SYME) GUNN was the daughter of Capt George SYME & Winifred ST LEGER?  Death certs are notoriously unreliable so, yes, perhaps there's an error in her father's name.  And does her birthplace come from censuses?  What about her birthdate?

Certainly it seems pretty unlikely (as you say) - but NOT impossible - that Capt George SYME of Prestonpans (b 1788, I think) would have fathered a daughter who married in 1822 (I can't find her marriage in the IGI but see that there are children of William GUNN & Isabella SYME/SIM from 1822 to 1828 in Halkirk, Caithness and in 1830 & 1832 in Durness, Sutherland).

Best regards,

JAP

[louislou411]

I have her death certificate and it clearly states Captain George Syme RN and Winifred St Leger.  As you say they can be unreliable.
However Isabella did have children that were living in Durness at the time she died and therefore I think a certain amount of the information could quite likely be true.
Isabella's children were John Gunn bp Halkirk 1822, Helen Gunn bp Halkirk 1823, Margaret Gunn bp Halkirk 1825, Robert Gunn bp Halkirk 1828, Georgina Gunn bn Halkirk bp Durness 1830, bd Durness 1924, John Gunn bp Durness 1832 bd Durness 1845, Alexander Gunn bp Durness 1834 bd 1895 Australia, Daniel Gunn bp Durness 1836, bd Durness 1901 and William Gunn bp Durness 1840.
It would be interesting to find out if Commander William Syme RN was a relative to Captain George Syme RN.

[mcleodsyme]

Hi Louislou 411

I have the marriage entry for George Syme and Jane Mcleod and it only says he was a lieut. in the Royal Navy, nothing about being a widow.
As Isabella Syme was born in 1796, if related to Capt. George Syme she could not have been his daughter but maybe a cousin.

I have not had any luck finding any information on the brothers and sisters of James Syme  who was Capt. George Syme's father, but as they liked to carry on  the names in the family maybe the father James did have a brother named George who married Winifred St. Leger and with any luck was in the navy


Good Luck
MacLeod/Syme

[louislou411]

What I find curious is that there are only two Captain Syme's listed as RN officers.  Commander William Syme and Commander George Syme.  I wonder whether Isabel was born a lot later than we thought.  It might explain why I and more recently other researchers haven't been able to find a birth/baptism entry for her (so far).  She could have been what we nowadays call a child bride (a 15-16yo).  It does happen although it is rare.  Although most men in the early days do not marry until at least their mid 20s I have seen on rare occasions seen men as young as 17yo getting married 200 years ago in Devon.

I recall reading that Captain George Syme and his wife Winifred were resident at Durness at the time of marriage in 1822.  I can't recall where I got this information from.  I may have a note of where this information came from but it is not at hand at the moment.  I first began pursuing this about 10 years ago.  It has only recently come back into my focus.  I dug out Isabell's death certificate a few weeks ago and have looked at it a few times in the last week.

To solve the problem is to get into the records at Kew and find out more about Commander George Syme and Commander William Syme.  I believe these records will give some details of the next of kin and with luck could solve the problem.