William JONES b circa 1828 Ditton Priors - Resolved

[Valda]

William is the legitimate birth and so he has no known reason to 'massage' the information about his father, so a definite match to his information will help prove you have the right marriage. Illegitimate people however did fabricate the information about their fathers if they could i.e. marrying out of area where they were not known. Since the information they gave had to be accepted at face value they would claim they were legitimate and either make up the information, copy the information from a close male relative, or name their real father if they knew him, but change his surname to match their own.
Since the evidence points to the fact Mary was illegitimate, I think anything she claims about her father on her marriage you have to take with a pinch of salt and understand her reasons for claiming legitimacy. She was not alone in this, many illegitimate people did actually the same thing on their marriages.

Regards

Valda

[Valda]

I'm sure Shropshire Family History Society could recommend an inexpensive  and efficient researcher who also knows local records and can give advice. In the past I have found such people extremely helpful particularly once you are out of 'census range'.

Regards

Valda

[Barnford]

Thank you - I have relatives living in Bishop's Castle, I will try to enlist their help. I think read on the Shropshire FHS that they only have limited copies of Parish records so Shrewsbury will probably be the best option.

[Barnford]

Re: Mary Rowe

This may prove to be utter nonsense but here goes anyway:

I have carried out a search of the 1851 census on Ancestry with a christian name of Mary b1832 in Diddlebury. It has thrown out just one match in terms of date and place of birth and that is for a Mary Dyer, daughter of James Dyer, carpenter, b circa 1798 in Culmington and living in Diddlebury. She is also living with him in the 1841 census.

I have checked the IGI for Diddlebury (and Culmington) and there is no christening record for Mary Dyer. I have also checked for James Dyer marriages in the two parishes and have found nothing.

On the plus side, the date and place of birth are correct and the christian name of the father and his occupation fit with the marriage certificate details. Also, there is no IGI record of Mary Dyer's birth nor of James Dyer's marriage.

On the negative side, the 1841 and 1851 census returns have Mary's name as Dyer and the marriage certificate has the father's surname as Rowe.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that he was the father and, after the possible mother's death in 1835 (burial 14th January 1835 St Peter Diddlebury Barbara Virgin Rowe aged 26) that he adopted the child and gave her his surname?

Would it ever be provable or only ever a possible scenario?

Thanks

[MJP]

Wow Barnford - great sleuthing!

He would not have had to "adopt" the child - no formal adoption back then.  It was common for step children to be referred to by their stepfather's name on census records (i.e. just give the whole family the same name), so I could easily believe that a child being looked after by her birth father (or, even if he his not her biological father, the person acting as her father) being given his name on a census even though her "official" name is something different.  If this scenario is true, she may have even used the name Dyer in everyday life, only putting Roe on the certificates because that was her official name. 

I don't think there would be any way to prove that this is her though?  You could discount it by finding Mary Dyer later in life (to prove that she couldn't be Mary Roe), or if the Dyer name creeped up in the family later on it might be a clue.  But beyond that I don't think there is any way??

MJP

[Janetmb52]

Hi Barnford,
I am a descendent of William Jones. He is my great great grandfather and Mary Dyer is my great, great grandmother. Annie Jones is my great grandmother. I too am searching for Mary Dyer. I have read the threads on Mary Dyer and see you are running into the same issues as myself. Annie Jones married George Jackson and immigrated to Ontario, Canada in the early 1900's. Thelma Alice Jackson is my grandmother who was born in Ontario Canada.
I did see James Dyer was a widower in the 1841 English Census and that is when I did a search for his wife with no luck. At one time, I did put Mary Rowe (Roe) as her name and took it out thinking I had the wrong name. I was surprised to see her name come up in the threads.
I am on Ancestry under the Nichols family tree. You can look at my family tree and see if you have the same information as me. I will gladly exchange any information I have on this family with you.
Janetmb52

[Barnford]

Thank you for the information. Jones research is notoriously difficult as you probably know and it took me several years to build this Jones family (my father's maternal line through Alfred John Jones and daughter Bertha Jones/Holton based in Nottingham). To the first point: I am not sure there was ever a Mary Dyer - at least not one I can trace. It is possible James was Mary Roe/Rowe's father but I have no evidence of that and the Mary living with him is far too young to be his wife, especially in 1841. I can not find 'my' Annie Jones anywhere in the 1911 UK census nor any death 1901-11, so your scenario is possible. I wonder if you have any evidence such as a marriage certificate, which confirms father's occupation (tailor) or anything which confirms her place of birth (Bromyard Herefordshire) in any records after 1901. I may have a photo of her taken in about 1880 with the rest of the family if you have any family photos to compare.
Regards

[Janetmb52]

Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I do have Annie Jones's marriage certificate to George Jackson. When I first started out searching my family tree, there were too many Jones and Jackson to figure out which ones belong to me so I ordered their marriage certificate. It was a process of elimination when I was searching immigration records to Canada. I chose one couple and it turned out I was right. On the marriage certificate it indicates William Jones is her father and he is a tailor.
I was looking at my tree and I was wondering if you your father is Ernest Albert Holton who was married to Annie Vera Free or Leonard Holton who was married to Winifred M Brownlow.
Do you use Ancestry? If you do, do you have a family tree where I can compare to mine?
Janetmb52

[Barnford]

I have PMd you.