LEMON

[rmcmurtry]

Hello,

My name is Richard McMurtry and I started doing family history when I was 16, 48 years ago!  in 1980, I wrote a book called: John McMurtry and the American Indian: A Frontiersman in the Struggle for the Ohio Valley.  In this book, I mention that John McMurtry married about 1770 to Mary Todd Hutton, daughter of Samuel Hutton and Mary Todd and granddaughter of William Todd born Ireland about 1700.

I am now corresponding with Todds in Northern Ireland and fleshing out the relationship or lack thereof between them using DNA analysis.

We seem to have located my Todds in central Co Antrim near Ballyalbanagh and Ballyclare and we have located unrelated Todds in Co Down by 1625 and in Co Armagh by the 1700s.

We are curious if we could use DNA to determine the origins of the Todds of Scotland.  By getting DNA samples from Scottish Todds, we could determine which of them share a common ancestor and perhaps wherein Scotland they originated. 
Perhaps your family originated elsewhere in Scotland and migrated to the Glasgow area at an early date.

What is your interest that brought you to the Rootschat site.?

Richard

[rmcmurtry]

HI J.....,

I see that George Frederick Todd had a daughter and a son born to his son George Buchanan Todd.  You must be the daughter.

I am going to try to call your father tomorrow.  Do you know if he has any interest in the family tree?    I'm going to give him my email over the phone; do you think he might respond to me that way.

Richard McMurtry
Todd FAmilies in America

[Jellytot28]

Am sure he will help if he can - very busy though so as long as it's not too complex as he's also technophobic!
Thanks

[Jellytot28]

Re DNA testing - is there proper informed consent for this procedure along with an information sheet - just hesitant about what is done with the information so we may not be willing to do that bit but will certainly help where we can with photos or pictures or letters etc

[BToz]

I've just found this site - I've been doing Todd family history over the past year and traced the Todd family back to Fenwick, Ayrshire around 1700. I'm curious about the Todd family Haghill in the 1600s - whether there's a connection to the Fenwick Tod(d)'s as they're only 15-20 miles away.

[rmcmurtry]

Beth,
Thanks for emailing me directly!   
We have one sample from Ayrshire which matches what the call the Group 2 DNA pattern of Todds and we have a sample from the Haghill Todds which mathces what we call the Group 1 pattern of Todds.  By doing a male DNA sample from a male Todd desc of a male Todd, you can find out if your Fenwick Todds match one of these patterns or a wholly independent family unrelated to those we have studied.

Richard McMurtry

[Toddstown]

Please see expert researcher, Richard McMurtry's colorful YDNA chart (circa 2011) entitled "DNA Patterns of the Todd Families of Northern Ireland." (filename below: todddnaparishmapofulster.pdf)  This YDNA page refers to the Todd Families, DNA Group 2 using royal blue circles on the multiple maps.  Group 2 YDNA, includes the Ballymorran, Killinchy, County Down, Todd/Scott/Marshall? heritage. Ballymorran is of particular interest to me due to the marriage records at Killinchy Presbyterian Church which I verified years ago pointing to the southern Ohio, USA  line of Todds (but I had no luck confirming parentage of Robert Todd (born 12 Aug 1806 / died 23 Feb. 1899, Butler County, Ohio, USA), husband of Prudence Ann Scott (born 25 Dec 1814 / died 6 Oct 1874, Butler County, Ohio USA- -Prudence is to be daughter of William SCOTT and Margaret CALDWELL or daughter of Samuel SCOTT and _____ (with a Samuel Scott to be in Ballymorran land records?)  Robert Todd and Prudence Ann SCOTT married at Killinchy Presby Church, 9 Mar 1833 and had ten children. Possible parents for this Robert Todd are to be: Samuel TODD  (born say c1760s-1780s) and wife Mary Ann MARSHALL (or perhaps ?? Wm Samuel Todd ??)-- Marshalls seem to be of Ballymorran, but nothing of this generation was able to be solidified... Could this family tie into anyone's research?

Here are a few of Richard's many links and pre 2012 pages- yes these still work as of this posting:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcmurtriecfr/richard/todd/irishscottishtodddna.htm
Irish and Scottish Todd DNA Final Report, Jan. 2011

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcmurtriecfr/richard/todd/todddnaentrance.htm
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcmurtriecfr/richard/todd/scotlandtodddnamap.pdf
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcmurtriecfr/richard/todd/todddnaparishmapofulster.pdf

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcmurtriecfr/richard/todd/toddentrance.htm
The Todd Families of America, Ireland, and Scotland   

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mcmurtriecfr/richard/todd/irishtoddhome.htm
The Todds of Northern Ireland

Does your Ayrshire line fall into Group 2?

I've just found this site - I've been doing Todd family history over the past year and traced the Todd family back to Fenwick, Ayrshire around 1700. I'm curious about the Todd family Haghill in the 1600s - whether there's a connection to the Fenwick Tod(d)'s as they're only 15-20 miles away.

[elliotgc]

I am also a descendant of the Lemons of Killycronaghan (my father posted earlier on in this thread, but I do all the genealogy research now). We have corresponded with most of the people in this thread in the past.

My 2x great grandmother was Mary Elizabeth Lemon (1868-1911), daughter of John Lemon (1839-1935) and Harriett Anne Williamson (1849-1922). It is this John Lemon who has proven most problematic, as his father was David Lemon and his mother is unknown. Thanks to the civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie site, I have now located deaths for John and Harriett, as well as births for all of their children.

I have obtained a death certificate for a Mary Lemon in Killycronaghan in 1890, aged 85, widow of David Lemon. Her son John was the informant. It is safe to assume that this is our John's mother. It is highly unlikely to be Mary Todd, as she married David Lemon on 15th June 1814 in Killeevan. It is not Martha Jane Hetherington either, as that David Lemon (son of David Lemon and Mary Todd) emigrated to Woodbury, Washington, Minnesota and died there in 1867. Martha remarried to David Marks and died in St Paul, Ramsey, Minnesota in 1905.

So that just leaves Mary Patten. We know that a Mary, the daughter of James Patten and Rachel Blakeley of Stonebridge, married David Lemon. There are baptisms at PRONI for children of David Lemon and Mary Patten in Killycronaghan in the 1830s. So far it looks like their children were:

Thomas Lemon 1832–
Eliza Jane Lemon 1833–1906 unmarried
Isabella Lemon 1833–1898 unmarried
Robert Lemon 1834–
Rachel Lemon 1836–1907 married John Martin
John Lemon 1839–1935 married Harriett Anne Williamson
James Lemon 1842–1870 unmarried
Mary Lemon 1847–

John married in Smithboro and Rachel married in Stonebridge. Both gave their addresses as Killycronaghan. Thomas Lemon and Mary Lemon were the witnesses on John's marriage and Martha Dunwoody and Irwin Martin were the witnesses on Rachel's marriage.

So the question is, who was our David Lemon and how did he connect to the family of David Lemon and Mary Todd? Did Mary Todd die and that David remarry to Mary Patten? I can find no record of a death for either David Lemon in Monaghan.

If it's not the same man, then perhaps he was a nephew. The 1825 tithe applotment books for Killycronaghan list David Lemon and Thomas Lemon (senior and junior). Maybe David (married to Mary Todd) and Thomas junior were brothers and their father was Thomas senior. Thomas junior could be the father of the David Lemon who married Mary Patten. Speculation, of course.

I've done a fair bit of research into the descendants of David Lemon and Mary Todd but I'm still unable to find where we fit in. I'd be very interested in any further information contained in Reverend Samuel Agnew's letters to Emilie Todd Helm which may help us get to the bottom of the Lemon family, at long last.

Both my father and I have done DNA testing with Ancestry, and I match a descendant of James Patten and Rachel Blakeley, and have a close match to a descendant of Isabella Lemon and Thomas Leghorn. I believe Isabella was the daughter of William Lemon and Margaret Leary, and William was the son of David Lemon and Mary Todd, but that still hasn't helped solve this mystery.

I look forward to hearing from anyone with further information about this family. Thank-you.

[Toddstown]

I do not deal with ancestry autosomal DNA matches so cannot be of any help there, but hope your AtDNA results have been transferred into ftdna's projects. Please compare your Lemon matches/YDNA results from Family Tree DNA lab, Houston TX. Am sure you have joined your YDNA to the Lemon surname project(s) at ftdna.  Work with your volunteer project administrator there -- YDNA testing/haplogroup SNP refinement has greatly advanced but you dont mention YDNA progress-do test and consider Big Y, which then is eligible to advance into YFull's excellent analysis.

Please refer to technologist founder of the YDNA,  Todd DNA Project, Terry Todd, of Illinois USA, early scans of these Rev. Samuel Agnew pages (which are owned and held by the Kentucky repository as set forth earlier):

http://74.93.73.41/agnew/page-03.png
Isabella Lemon (4) b1820 m. Thomas Leghorn

http://74.93.73.41/agnew/page-02.png
Matilda Lemon m. ______ Dunwoody and had 10 kids, one of which is Martha Dunwoody, #6 of 10, m. D. McCoy [Nickles, McCrum, some Dunwoodys to America];

2nd child, Wm Lemon m. ______, and had a son David Lemon, ___________________ (no detail on this David...so ?)

Hope you consider and place the Lemon's of Ballymorran as stated on the Ros Davies' pages for County Down as set forth in this thread.

So yes Leghorn/Dunwoody/Lemon/Todd are all tied to my Group 2 YDNA Todd results--so not Group 1 YDNA Todd results (Mary Todd Lincoln line). My old notes refer to  "William Lemon's property near Newbliss" --so perhaps you could study this clue. I see that Newbliss also arose in an email I received 3 March 2009 from Richard McMurty, which I quote here:

"By the 1858s, there were only 8 Todd families in Monaghan:
Emyvale-Annagh-Tiravera area:  James, Mgt and 3 John’s about 25-30 km from New Bliss
Kilmore: Wm Todd only 11 km from New Bliss
Monghan: Elizabeth about 17 km from Newbliss
 
The next step for the Monaghan Todds would be to research the tithe records from the 1820s to get a picture of the Todds who remained behind. Then, the next step would be to begin systematically getting the marriage records of Todds in Monaghan from the 1840s and deaths from the 1860s to construct  a family tree of the Monaghan Todds.  This would not identify Andrew, father of Samuel Rutherford Todd b 1807 but it would show you the family that stayed behind and give a better idea of where in Co Monaghan Andrew came from. Depending on the DNA signature, you might even be able to prove connection to the Monaghan Todds who remained in Ireland. I can find no Todds in Co Monaghan today, but there are  few in nearby Co Tyrone and Armagh.
Richard"     [Richard McMurtry's email to Toddstown [rootschat], dated March 2009]