Author Topic: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands  (Read 52379 times)

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 21 July 07 12:11 BST (UK) »
Hey Bryce,

Was at New Register House today looking up some stuff and while I was looking up a marriage I happened to see on the same page a marriage for a Esther Sutherland (daughter of Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain).....weird hey!!

So it looks like this is a long lost (well only to us) sister to your Angus Sutherland :)

I copied all the details down for you:

13 July 1877 at Bruan, Latheron marriage between

James Sutherland (crofter & cooper journeyman) widower Fa: Benjamin Sutherland crofter & fisherman dec Mo: Catherine Sutherland (MS Cormack dec) 70yrs Res: Smerly Swiney, Latheron

Esther Sutherland (agricultural labourer - widow) Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter & fisherman dec Mo: Janet Sutherland (MS Bain dec) 50yrs Res: Smerly Swiney, Latheron

Witnesses: John Bain, Margaret Forbes

So this makes her born approx 1827 which would make her a younger sister to Angus by quite a number of years, so my guess is that there are many more siblings!! I checked for her death and got the following:

Death: Esther Sutherland crofter widow 1st William Bain crofter 2nd James Sutherland crofter died 10 Mar 1900 at ??Hill, Smerlie, Lybster aged 75yrs Fa: Neil Sutherland crofter dec, Mo: Janet Sutherland MS Bain dec Heart Disease & Pneumonia. Informant Alexander Bain son & inmate present.

and her census details:

1841 census - Knockallie, Latheron, Caithness

Niel Sutherland 60yrs Fisherman born in county
Jannet Sutherland 35yrs born in county
Jannet Sutherland 20yrs born in county
Esther Sutherland 15yrs born in county
Isabella Sutherland 10yrs born in county
Robert Sutherland 8yrs born in county
George Sutherland 6yrs born in county
Alexander Sutherland 4yrs born in county
William Sutherland 1yr born in county

1851 census - Barthargio, Latheron, Caithness

Willm Bain Head M 45yrs Farmer of 4 acres b. Latheron, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 26yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Bain Sister 50yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

1861 census - Lomgove, Latheron, Caithness

William Bain Head M 58yrs Farmer b. Latheron, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 36yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald Bain Son 8yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Bain Dau 5yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Alexander Bain Son 3yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Bain Sister 63yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

1871 census - Badharigo, Swiney Estate, Lybster, Latheron

William Bain Head M 66yrs Crofter b. Swiney, Caithness
Esther Bain Wife M 46yrs crofter's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Bain Dau U 15yrs Scholar b. Swiney, Caithness
Alexander Bain Son U 13yrs Scholar b. Swiney, Caithness

1891 census - Swiney Estate, Lybster, Latheron

Esther Sutherland Head W 62yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (gaelic & english speaking)
Alexander Bain Son U 32yrs Gen Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness

seeing that the 1841 census seems to be you Neil Sutherland (though I cannot actually look at the image and no relationships are mentioned, so have put them in descending age order only) I thought I would look at the other census for this family.

1851 census - Balnabruick, Latheron, Caithness

Neil Sutherland Head 76yrs Crofter of 3 acres b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Wife 50yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Dau 30yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Alexr Sutherland Son 11yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Son 9yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

1861 census - Balnabruich, Latheron, Caithness

Neil Sutherland Head 80yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Wife 60yrs Crofter's wife b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Dau 40yrs Household & Agricultural Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
Isabella Sutherland Dau 30yrs Household & Agricultural Labourer b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Son 19yrs Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Donald Bruce GSon 2yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

Now I realise that Janet (the wife) is too young to have had Angus, so I suspect the old man got married twice, so now all you have to do is check Scotland's People or the New Register House for Neil's death and it 'should' say who his parents were and who he was married to!!!

The IGI shows 2 marriages but they are submitted, so you'll need to check the official certs

Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain 17 Dec 1802 Latheron, Caithness
Neil Sutherland and Janet Campbell 29 Dec 1825 Latheron, Caithness

Are you feeling lucky??

Let me know how it goes, I am eager to know now, good luck :)

Jenny

P.S E-mailed this to you as well but it came back delayed, so thought I'd put it here as well  ;)
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

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Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 21 July 07 12:45 BST (UK) »
Couldn't put it down, typical of me  ::)

So I checked the IGI for the children of Neil Sutherland

This is what I got: Now bear in mind that they are all submitted entries NOT from OPR's so they all need to be checked on Scotland's People or New Register House. Also the first group I assume to be the children of Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain but only Neil's name is down as father as was the custom back then. I also realise that they married in 1802 so the first couple of kids could be someone else's entirely or more likely born out of wedlock.

George Sutherland chr 27 Jan 1801 Latheron ? died young
James Sutherland chr 3 Nov 1802 Latheron ? died young
Angus Sutherland chr 8 Oct 1803 Latheron
William Sutherland chr 8 Aug 1805 Latheron ? died young
Margaret Sutherland chr 2 Dec 1807 Latheron ?died young
Adam Sutherland c. 1808 (from grave below)
Margaret Sutherland chr 6 July 1810 Latheron
James Sutherland chr 4 Feb 1812 Latheron
Donald Sutherland chr 12 Sep 1813 Latheron ?died young
Hugh Sutherland chr 2 Aug 1814 Latheron ? died young
Ann Sutherland chr 1815 Latheron
Donald Sutherland chr 19 Sep 1816 Latheron
Mary Sutherland chr 25 Feb 1817 Latheron
Janet Sutherland chr 7 Jan 1819 Latheron
Alexander Sutherland chr 4 Apr 1822 Latheron ? died young
William Sutherland chr 22 Aug 1822 Latheron ?another man? Not sure this one fits in as the baptism is very close
Esther Sutherland chr 31 July 1824 Latheron

These I assume to be the children of Neil and his second wife Janet Campbell

Isabol Sutherland chr 7 July 1828 Latheron
Robert Sutherland chr 23 Feb 1830 Latheron Neil Sutherland Janet Campbell
George Sutherland b 12 Sep 1832 chr 24 Sep 1832 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell 

Hugh Sutherland b 13 Mar 1836 chr 24 Mar 1836 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell ?died young?
Alexander Sutherland b 27 Jan 1838 chr 6 Feb 1838 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell
William Sutherland b 2 Sep 1840 chr 6 Sep 1840 Latheron Neil & Janet Campbell


Red ones are the ones in the 1841 census with their father and of course your Angus :)

Also found a grave in Latheron old cemetery:

Grave 214
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.

Blue ones are the one's I think are mentioned in this grave (but very tentative as there was no entry for Adam Sutherland at all)

I think the ones that have siblings named after them may have died young and I have put this next to their names, also for the youngest Hugh as he is not present in the 1841 census.

So now you have stacks of names to check in the records, you might even be able to get deaths for all the siblings (well the ones that lived past 1855 anyway!)

Good luck and let me know how you go

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

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Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 21 July 07 13:15 BST (UK) »
Now Bryce, I also checked the IGI for Neil/Niel Sutherland births around 1780 because although 17 children to one couple is not unheard of I thought I'd better check if he was the only Neil Sutherland around at the time.

There are two (so some children may be to one or the other, so unfortunately it means you'll have to check deaths to be certain who belongs to who)

Neil Sutherland chr 1st or 6th Feb 1778 Latheron Father: John Sutherland
Niel Sutherland chr 26 May 1782 Latheron Father: William Sutherland

Both are submitted entries NOT OPR's so we'll have to wait and see what Neil's death certificate says hey  ::)

Jenny

P.S You've got me hooked now.....What better to do in dreich weather  ;)
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline ostler

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 21 July 07 23:24 BST (UK) »
:o :o :o

You've been busy! :P

Well it's all well and good, but I couldn't find the "correct" Neil/Niel Sutherland on ScotlandsPeople at all, so I assumed he died before 1855... even the census results I got were completely different to the ones you have there! :-\ It's too late at night to be searching through all this stuff right now, but mark my words I'll be back at this tomorrow! Once I finish work... and help my parents with stuff... and do other things... dammit. Soon! :D
All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler (and all variations!!)

Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul, Small
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)

England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 22 July 07 11:52 BST (UK) »
You mean I've been bored, and this little challenge gave me something useful to do  ;D

Niel/Neil/Neal Sutherland should have died between 1861 and 1871 but might be best to wildcard the search and just search for N Sutherland as Scotland's People is notorious for showing exactly what you type and that only. Another way of getting our money so we have to do multiple searches!!

I also found this on google when I was mucking around with Neil Sutherland, which seems to suggest he died in 1865. But who knows how acurate this is or not.

On website: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kaob/d121.htm

Neil SUTHERLAND(2167) was born in 1780. He died in 1865. Parents: William SUTHERLAND and Ann SUTHERLAND.
He was married to Janet CAMPBELL on 29 Dec 1825 in Latheron. (2168)

William SUTHERLAND(2172) was born about 1755 in Latheron.(2173) Parents: Donald SUTHERLAND and Margaret SUTHERLAND.
He was married to Ann SUTHERLAND. (2174) Children were: Neil SUTHERLAND , Esther SUTHERLAND, Marjorie SUTHERLAND, Amelia SUTHERLAND, Frances SUTHERLAND.

Donald SUTHERLAND(2129) was born on 4 Sep 1730 in bapt Watten. He died in 1774.
He was married to Margaret SUTHERLAND on 26 Feb 1759 in Latheron. (2130) Children were: William SUTHERLAND , Alexander SUTHERLAND, George SUTHERLAND.

Just for completeness I searched for a death for Neil Sutherland in 1865 on Scotland's People and one match comes up, it is the only match that comes up between 1861 and 1871 and it appears to be in Latheron, Caithness so it is looking hopeful..only wish I had some credits  ;)

I am eager to hear what you find, so post it here if you can :)

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline ostler

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 22 July 07 22:16 BST (UK) »
I've already viewed that N Sutherland's death certificate by the looks of things...

I probably dismissed it instantly since it only has Janet Campbell on as his wife; no mention of Janet Bain! :(

I've not got the time to look into this in depth right now (shattered), but maybe tomorrow night. One thing I'll say is that other than Janet and William, none of the other names you mentioned fits in with my family names. Not that that necessarily means anything of course!
All countries/counties
Kinnes, Ostler (and all variations!!)

Scotland
Caithness: Sutherland and Gunn (Latheron), Mowat (Olrig, Canisbay)
Fife: Fleming, Harley, Small, Laing, Malcolm
Angus/Forfarshire: Small, Laing (Dundee)
Perthshire: Runciman, Whittet, Paul, Small
Midlothian: Dudgeon, Sanderson (Tranent)

England
Gloucestershire: Edkins, Trowton/Troughton
Warwickshire: Bromley, Vickers, Hydon

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #33 on: Monday 23 July 07 17:31 BST (UK) »
Hey Bryce,

Don't dismiss it so quickly, I had the exact same situation with a family in Latheron.

I had an Anne Nicoll parents John Nicoll and Jane Tait (on her death cert, and verified with census data). I had a marriage for John Nicoll and Jane Tait in 1840 in Latheron, which fit with their first child in 1841 and the 1841 census which showed mum, dad and child (and his sister) but no-one else. His death cert in 1865 showed his widow as Jane Tait, and his parents......so everything seemed to fit yes? Well it was only that I found a gravestone when I was up there last year for him and his wives Margaret Morrison (died 1839) and Jane Tait (died 1895)  ;)

So no mention of a first wife anywhere, not even on the OPR record for his second marriage  ::) To this day cannot find anything on her at all, no marriage to John Nicoll in the records and no children as far as I can tell. So it can and does happen, these disappearing wives. But you my dear have a lot more to go on.

Lets look at the proven facts:

Death cert for Angus Sutherland 1888 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
Marriage cert for Esther Sutherland 1877 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)
Death cert for Esther Sutherland 1900 with parents Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain (parents dec'd)

So we can glean from this the they are siblings and that Neil and Janet were deceased by 1877.

So Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain were having children between 1803 and 1824 at least.

There are only 2 marriages around this time for Neil Sutherland these are:

Neil Sutherland and Janet Bain 17 Dec 1802 Latheron, Caithness
Neil Sutherland and Janet Campbell 29 Dec 1825 Latheron, Caithness

So that would fit with Janet Bain dying and Neil remarrying as he would have had young children to have looked after  ;)

So logically if you look at the OPR for the second marriage it 'should' say widower against Neil's name (but then remembering my little story it didn't for John Nicoll!)

As I gave you Esther Sutherland's census returns from 1841 you have more info to go on. Esther married her first husband William Bain between 1841 and 1851 so you have her with her 'parents' in 1841. This is the only census that fits for 'your' Esther Sutherland.

1841 census - Knockallie, Latheron, Caithness

Niel Sutherland 60yrs Fisherman born in county
Jannet Sutherland 35yrs born in county
Jannet Sutherland 20yrs born in county
Esther Sutherland 15yrs born in county
Isabella Sutherland 10yrs born in county
Robert Sutherland 8yrs born in county
George Sutherland 6yrs born in county
Alexander Sutherland 4yrs born in county
William Sutherland 1yr born in county

Esther is with her father and what seems to be her step mum Janet Campbell. We know from the death cert for Neil Sutherland in 1865 (the Neil that fits the census returns I gave you) that he was married to Janet Campbell (doesn't mean he wasn't married before this though) as my John Nicoll's death cert showed only his second wife too. The fact that there is an elder sister Jannet also there adds weight to the assumption that Neil was married twice as there are 2 children with him in 1841 that are born pre his marriage to Janet Campbell.

I think it would be a good idea to spend some time at New Register House to try and find deaths for the children in the 1841 census to see who they put down as their parents. Isabella down should say Janet Campbell as their mother and Esther up should say Janet Bain as their mother.

There is no guarantee that this is your family but I think that the evidence is leaning strongly towards it  ;D

Check the OPR's for the marriages and some deaths and see what you think ok

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #34 on: Monday 23 July 07 17:53 BST (UK) »
Oh, just had a thought

Why not check the deaths for the grave I found??

Grave 214
Sacred to the memory of.
Adam Sutherland, boat carpenter, died at Dunbeath 12th July 1845 aged 37.
Erected by his affectionate father Neil Sutherland.
Also.
Amelia Sutherland died 29th December 1876 aged 53.
Husband Donald Sutherland, shoemaker of Knockally, died 5th May 1883 aged 68.

Unfortunately Adam died pre-registration but Donald and Amelia did not (not sure if Donald is also a child on Neil Sutherland as the grave does not state this but worth a try)

Also Janet Sutherland (daughter of Neil) is with him till 1861 so you should be able to find a death for her as she is post registration also.......and too old to be a daughter of Janet Campbell's  ;)

Good luck mate

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #35 on: Monday 23 July 07 18:34 BST (UK) »
Last post for a while I promise  ;D

Had a look at Donald & Amelia's census returns and what do you know they have a son called Neil so it is looking possible that he is a son of Neil's too. He also lives in the same place in 1851

1841 - Melton, Caithness

Donald Sutherland M 25yrs Shoemaker b. Caithness
Emly Sutherland M 25yrs b. Caithness

1851 census - Balnabruich, Latheron, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head M 36yrs Shoemaker b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Wife M 36yrs b. Edinburgh, Midlothian
Neil Sutherland Son 9yrs Scholar b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Adam Sutherland Son 5yrs b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness
Emlen Sutherland Dau 1yr b. Parish of Brundall, Caithness

1861 census - Knockalley, Latheron, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head M 48yrs Shoemaker b. Dunnet, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Wife M 48yrs Shoemaker's wife b. Dunnet, Caithness
Neil Sutherland Son 18yrs Shoemaker (journeyman) b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Adam Sutherland Son 14yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Emely Sutherland Dau 11yrs Shoemaker's dau b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Dau 8yrs Shoemaker's dau b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1871 census - Knockalley, Dunbeath Estate, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head M 56yrs Shoemaker master b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Amelia Sutherland Wife M 56yrs Shoemaster's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Ann Sutherland Serv 20yrs General Serv b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Donaldina Sutherland Dau 14yrs Servant domestic b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1881 census - Knockally, Dunbeath, Caithness

Donald Sutherland Head Wid 66yrs Shoemaker b. Dunbeath, Caithness

happy hunting  ;D

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill