Author Topic: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES  (Read 5023 times)

Offline Ayjay228

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1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« on: Wednesday 03 January 07 04:22 GMT (UK) »
Hoping someone can help on this one.

I have info. taken from an electronic copy of the 1851 Census as follows:

Llanelly HO 107/2468  Folio 371,   128   35

David HARRIES  Head  40   Skinner & Glover
Margaret        Wife  27
Ann        Dtr   13
Jane       Dtr   3
Mary       Dtr   1
Benjamin  Brthr  15

Address was Queen's Square, Llanelly.

From my research, I know that in Dec.1868 Jane (age 22) married David REYNOLDS, and the marr. cert. shows Jane's father David (a skinner) as deceased.

Q.1.  In 1851 is Jane 3 or 5 years old?
Q.2.  In 1851 is Margaret (wife) 27 or 37? or could Ann (dtr) be from an earlier marriage?

Can anyone supply me with confirmation from the 1851 Census and further info. from the 1861 and 1871 Censuses? In 1871 Margaret, if still living would be a widow, unless she re-married of course.

Many thanks in advance.

Regards

C-al-garian        :)
Jenkins; Griffiths; Reynolds; Simlett; Harries; Evans

Offline Koromo

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 03 January 07 07:17 GMT (UK) »

Hi

The writing is very clear, and Jane is definitely aged 3. Margaret is written as 27 - and yes, that would make her rather young to have a 13-yr-old child.

Ann (13) has 'nurse' written as her occupation, and Benjamin the brother was an 'apprentice skinner'.

Cheers
Koromo
Census information is Crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
____________________________________________________________

Lewis: Llanfair Kilgeddin | Abergavenny | NZ
Stallworthy: Bucks. | Samoa | NZ
Brothers: Nottingham | NZ
Darling: Dunbar | Tahiti
Keat: St Minver | NZ
Bowles: Deal | NZ
Coaney: Bucks.
Jones: Brecon

Offline Koromo

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 03 January 07 07:40 GMT (UK) »

I looked for David Harries in 1841, but no luck. I found his 1851 Llanelly Queen Square neighbours, but there weren't any glovers/skinners, let alone any called Harries/Harris. (NB. Queen Square is called King Square in 1841.) I thought he might be in Abergwili and there is a David Harries there, aged 25, an Ag Lab, living in an outhouse which didn't seem right, somehow!

However, this could be David's parents and siblings:

1841  HO107/1387/1/6/4
New House (Goityeadno?? Pound?), Logincoch, St Peters, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire
John Harris, 50, glover, yes born in county
Anne Harris, 50, yes
Jane Harris, 20, yes
John Harris, 20, skinner, yes
Anne Harris, 20, yes
Thomas Harris, 15, skinner, yes
Henry Harris, 14, skinner, yes
Sarah Harris, 11, yes
Benjamin Harris, 6, yes


1861 RG9/4113/16/26
King Street, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire
David Harris, head, 50, glover & leather draper, b. St Peters, Carmarthen
Margaret Harris, wife, 35, b. Abergwilly, Carmarthen
Jane Harris, dau, 13, b. Llanelly, Carmarthen
John Harris, son, 9, b. Llanelly
Thomas Harris, son, 7, b. Llanelly
Sarah Harris, dau, 4, b. Llanelly
William Harris, son, 2, b. Llanelly

1861 RG9/4141/64/15
Tanerdy? Road, St Peter, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire
Benjamin Harris, head, 26, glover & skinner, b. St Peters, Carmarthen
Rachel Harris, wife, 28, b. Abergwili, Carmarthen


And this is interesting, and a bit confusing!!

1871 RG10/5467/31/7
7 Union Building, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire
David Reynolds, head, 29, carpenter, b. Llanelly, Carmarthen
Jane Reynolds, wife, 23, b. Llanelly
Mary S Harries, step-dau, 3, b. Llanelly
David J Reynolds, son, 9 mths, b. Pentre y strad, Glamorgan

I can't find the rest of the Harries family with any certainty. There are individual Harries children dotted around but there's nothing to tie them into David and Margaret's family.

:)
Census information is Crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
____________________________________________________________

Lewis: Llanfair Kilgeddin | Abergavenny | NZ
Stallworthy: Bucks. | Samoa | NZ
Brothers: Nottingham | NZ
Darling: Dunbar | Tahiti
Keat: St Minver | NZ
Bowles: Deal | NZ
Coaney: Bucks.
Jones: Brecon

Offline Ayjay228

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 04 January 07 03:38 GMT (UK) »
Hi Koromo

Many thanks for this, it's been a great help (I think!)

The 1861 census showing Margaret as age 35, makes the 1851 census to be correct, and maybe ANN (dtr) was from a previous marriage (or whatever).

The 1841 census also confirms Benjamin's (and DAVID's) parents as John and Anne, something I didn't know, thank you!  Also, in 1841, Jane, John, and Anne as age 20?... triplets I wonder? or 19,20,21? I can check that on FreeBMD. Unfortunate that David and Margaret can't be found in 1841.

Yes, I have the 1871 census copy for David and Jane REYNOLDS, and I'm also confused about the s/dtr. Maybe Jane's child from a previous 'partnership'

Anyway, thanks again, I'll sift through all this to see if it gets less confusing.

Regards      :)
Jenkins; Griffiths; Reynolds; Simlett; Harries; Evans


Offline Koromo

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 04 January 07 08:16 GMT (UK) »

Hi c-al-garian

I would doubt those 3 children were triplets. The instructions to enumerators of the 1841 census were to round down the ages to the nearest multiple of 5, so Jane, John and Anne could all have been aged between 20 and 24. Even 15-year-old Thomas could really be a 19-year-old.

Under the age of 15, the enumerators were meant to write down the actual age and in most cases they did, but remember that they could only put down what they were given by the family. Often the enumerators didn't understand the instructions themselves and a large percentage of the population were illiterate in those days, too. It's best to regard the ages in the 1841 census as a guide rather than definitive proof!

All John and Anne's children were born before the civil registration of births became mandatory from the September quarter of 1837. You will have to track down the parish records to find the children's baptisms. There are a couple of possibles on the IGI:

Baptised at St Peters, Carmarthen with parents John and Hannah
Batch No 7211907, submitted entries by LDS members
John Harris, 11 Jun 1815
Anne Harris, 10 Nov 1820
Elizabeth Harris, 30 Jan 1825

Note: The names Anne and Hannah were often interchangeable. I have many Annes in the censuses whose birth/baptism name was Hannah.

Good luck!  ;)

Cheers
Koromo
:)
Census information is Crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
____________________________________________________________

Lewis: Llanfair Kilgeddin | Abergavenny | NZ
Stallworthy: Bucks. | Samoa | NZ
Brothers: Nottingham | NZ
Darling: Dunbar | Tahiti
Keat: St Minver | NZ
Bowles: Deal | NZ
Coaney: Bucks.
Jones: Brecon

Offline Ayjay228

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #5 on: Friday 05 January 07 04:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi Koromo

Thank you for enlightening me about the 1841 Census, something I hadn't known before.

The next part is to find out about David and Margaret's marriage; so far there are (6) possibles between 1837 and 1846, and since I don't know Margaret's maiden name, I suppose the easiest way is to request a b/cert of JANE, then I'll know a bit more about Margaret.

Anyway, thanks again.

Regards

C-al-garian
Jenkins; Griffiths; Reynolds; Simlett; Harries; Evans

Offline welsh lady

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #6 on: Friday 05 January 07 16:55 GMT (UK) »
c-al-agarian
You were right in assuming Ann was from Davids first marriage .Heres the Baptism
Abergwili Baptisms
Ann Harries-on 03/09/1837
Father-David Harries ,Occupation -Glover
Mother-Elizabeth
Abode-Gategoch.

Only marriage i can find that fits in the area and date (Have Carms marriages on disc)is David Harris to Elizabeth Nelson
on 30/06/1836 in St Peters Carmarthen.

Best Wishes Welsh Lady











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Offline kob3203

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 04 November 09 15:08 GMT (UK) »
My interest in this is via the 1871 Reynolds connection (RG10/5467/31/7, 7 Union Building, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire), the David Reynolds/Jane XXXX marriage, and the curious case of the Mary J Harries stepdaughter.

I'd noticed too that Mary J Harries is shown as David's step-daughter on the 1871 census, so I assumed that she was Jane's daughter from a previous marriage.

If that was correct, then I wasn't sure whether the David Reynolds/Jane XXXX would show her maiden name or her married surname (i.e. the name of her deceased husband), so I did a tentative Birth GRO index search and came up with this, which must be the certificate that you have?
1868, Dec, David Reynolds, Llanelly, 11a, 912
1868, Dec, Jane Harries, Llanelly, 11a, 912

I'm confused because your first post in this topic implies that Harries was her maiden name, and gives no indication that she was a widow when she married David Reynolds.

Puzzled,
Pete

P.S. I guess there's always the possibility that she married somebody with the same surname, Harries, and had a daughter, Mary J Harries, with him before he died? The only possibility I can see is too far away, and probably too early...
1862, Dec, Jane Harries, Haverfordwest, 11a,1124
1862, Dec, William Harries, Haverfordwest, 11a,1124
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: 1851/1861/1871 Census Lookup request Please - HARRIES
« Reply #8 on: Friday 06 November 09 04:26 GMT (UK) »
Regarding Mary S Harries being a step-daughter.

Assuming Jane Harries wasn't married before, she could have been previously engaged to a fiancé who died before the wedding date. I guess it wasn't as uncommon as we'd expect, given the dangerous jobs and high mortality rates at that time?

Pete
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)