Author Topic: Anyone with Something Similar  (Read 8663 times)

Offline Aley

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 15 April 07 01:19 BST (UK) »
Hi Louise

Could you give your Dad a big Thank You from us and thank you too for the help.

And David, thank you for the info on the Scottish use of borders.

Aley
Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

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Offline coralc

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 15 April 07 05:59 BST (UK) »
 3 LOINS rampant ? What a perfectly delightful idea ! (Sadly, no address provided!)
            Coral
David Boyd/Margaret Boyd (nee McCrea)James McIlwaine/Annie  McIlwaine (nee Condy)Carrickfergus,Late 19th/early 20th,William Hamilton Clarke-Dublin/Belfast/Eleanor Clarke(nee Anderson)Cumber?Belfast,also 19/20 th century.David was a shipwright,James a gardener,they had a wee shop in Carrickfergus around the turn of the century.Also Margaret, James& Samuel Weatherup c 17?? - 18??, also Carrickfergus

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Offline rostebe

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 26 May 09 21:55 BST (UK) »
Hi,
the enclosed picture is from an application for nobility in 1819 in Finland from Herman Ross, where he claims a descendance from the Rosses of Balnagowan and/or Kindeance/Kindeis. In the application also the Ross of Pitkerrie descendance is mentioned as one possibility. The application did not succeed on those grounds as the genealogic tracing to those Scottish families were not satisfactorily described. He was however nobilised but on his own merits.

In my opinion the colours in the checkered bordings are gold and red, definitely not white and red. I would need to go to the archives again and see again it with fresh eyes and not only from my photograph in order to verify this.

In the application there is no explanation on wherefrom that coat of arms has been obtained. The application only includes the wish of Herman Ross to be granted the right to use the coat of arms of his ancestors, and this picture is an enclosure.

I would highly appreciate any further comments on how to interpret this differented Ross coat of arms.

rostebe



Offline Just Kia

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 27 May 09 06:25 BST (UK) »
How interesting.
I see the border of the 1819 is of three lines deep rather than 2 - would this indicate another generation down the line maybe?
I could be wrong, but I always understood that "argent" was silver rather than white?
I wonder again whether the gold colouring with the red in the border and also the lion appear to be gold as well, instead of silver or white, is also indicative of this being of another generation?
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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 27 May 09 11:18 BST (UK) »
In Scotland the "bordure compony" that is the alternating squares in a single row round the shield is usually reserved to indicate illegitimacy.  The triple row may be a difference from a shield originally having a single row or simply a difference incorporated from a "chequy" that chequered shield of an intermarriage.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
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Offline Little Nell

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 27 May 09 12:41 BST (UK) »
In colour illustrations silver (correct heraldic term: argent) is generally depicted as white, while gold (correct heraldic term: or) is generally shown as yellow.

Nell
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Offline Stilllooking71

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 19 May 16 20:25 BST (UK) »
Hi Aley, I was just sent the same picture by my cousin, I'm also looking for any information available

Offline davidbappleton

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #25 on: Friday 20 May 16 16:58 BST (UK) »
The Scottish use of borders to denote relationship to the main line is very complicated.  For the first generation.

The eldest son uses a red label until the death of his father. His eldest son using the fathers shield without the label. 
The second son a gold bordure (border)
The third son a blue border
The fourth son a red border
The fifth son a black border

These borders are passed as are the following on to their respective eldest sons and so may be repeated in later generations.

Something that many folks appear to have missed in looking at the potential origins of this modified coat is that under the Stodart system of differencing (quoted above), while the fourth son would normally use a red bordure around the paternal arms, you can't place a red bordure on a red field (it would basically disappear visually). Under the Stodart system (of which there's a good explanation, and an illustration, of all this at http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/lordlyon6.htm), as applied to these arms, the fourth son would use a bordure "checky gules and argent", the bordure used on the arms originally posted here.

David