Author Topic: Anyone with Something Similar  (Read 8616 times)

Offline Aley

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #9 on: Friday 26 January 07 18:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi Louise,
It was found in an attic. The owner of the house traced down the other owner
before her and they didn't know it was there  (never used the attic). So I was asked to find info on it.  She said on the back had,  Ross Coat Of Arms. That's all I know.

Aley

Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

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Offline Aley

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 28 January 07 19:17 GMT (UK) »
Spent a short time at a library and found this under the name Ross.

Motto; Rosam ne Rode, a Fox issuant with a rose in his mouth. [ Charles Ross son to Ross of Kildace 1672].
Motto; Caute non Astute, A Fox passant.
Motto; Spes Aspera Levat, a Fox head.

Found in, The General Armory of England, Ireland, Scotland , Wales.
Fairbairn's Crests Family.

Aley
Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 28 January 07 22:24 GMT (UK) »
Motto; Caute non Astute, A Fox passant.

Found in, The General Armory of England, Ireland, Scotland , Wales.
Fairbairn's Crests Family.

Aley


The above is of course a better description of the fox in your illustration although not quite the traditional "passant".  Sorry I missed this one when I consulted Fairbairns I used the wrong fox (the running one) when I searched.  The only other information is that it is a Scottish crest.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Aley

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 27 March 07 19:54 BST (UK) »
Still looking for more info on this Coat of Arms.

Aley
Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

Offline lcsnor

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 27 March 07 19:57 BST (UK) »
Aley,
I sent it off to my Dad last week so I'll let you know what he thinks when he gets a chance to have a look at it.  Right now he tells me he's sinking under months of mail!
L
Desperately seeking:
Martha Ann Keily - Limerick/Woolwich mid 1800s
Mary Jane Hawkins - Bridgwater c.1835
George Gulson - Warmfield or Mansfield 1790s

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Aley

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 27 March 07 20:12 BST (UK) »
Hi Louise

I can wait for your Dads thoughts on it.

Aley
Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

Offline lcsnor

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #15 on: Friday 13 April 07 17:54 BST (UK) »
OK, well here's my Dad's reply.  I will quote him directly, but the thing he doesn't spell out, but which I discussed with him is that even though the picture is in black & white the way it is shaded does indicate colours. 
Here's what he says:

"This is undoubtedly a Ross coat of arms.  The arms of the chief of the clan are the white lions on the red shield in the middle and in scottish practice junior descendents have his arms altered by a border of one or other design according to a set of rules which I don't know much about. 
Essentially these appear to be the arms of the senior member of the Ross family of Kindace who may or may not exist today.  These arms were entered in the Register of Scottish Arms, Vol I, page 405 on which page also appear the arms of Ross of Pilkerie.
The Kindace arms are:
Gules 3 lioncels rampant argentwithin a birdure countercompany of the second(argent) and first(gules).  The crest - above the helmet is "a fox passant proper".  The motto (missing on yours) is Callte non astute"
In plain English:
Red with 3 little white lions up on their hind legs with a border of 2 rows alternately white and red.  The crest is a fox in his natural colours passing by.  The motto means, Cautious not treacherous.

I use the word "essentially" because in fact the illustration you sent me has a border alternately red and white (ie it starts with the wrong colour in the first square), which could be an artists mistake or could ba a further variation of the family arms for a younger son. 

The laws of heraldry in scotland are quite strict and still capable of legal enforcement under and act of the Scot's Parliament in 1672.  Only one person can use any one coat of arms so if a man has more than one son the younger one must take out a new grant of arms.  This is commonly done even today."



He then goes on to caution about anyones right to use the arms unless they can prove your the direct descendant of the original owner etc.

He further says,
"There is still a chief of Clan ross using the plain arms of the 3 white lioncels on a red field.  He is the senior male descendent of the Earl of Ross who died in mediaeval times and used those arms.  Ross of Pilkerie which I mentioned above, is almost identical to Kindace but with border alternately gold and red."

Hope that goes some way to help you understanding what this is.  Wouldn't it be great to discover that the finder had the right to use it! 

Louise
Desperately seeking:
Martha Ann Keily - Limerick/Woolwich mid 1800s
Mary Jane Hawkins - Bridgwater c.1835
George Gulson - Warmfield or Mansfield 1790s

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline KathMc

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 14 April 07 11:26 BST (UK) »
Louise,

I thanked you in an email but I wanted to thank you (and your dad) here also. Louise's dad also took a look at a crest from some branch of my family and I appreciate the time he put into it and his response (and hers).

Thanks a lot.

Kath
Sligo: Davey (also Mayo), McCluskey, McNulty
Wexford and Staffordshire: Hayes, McClean
Galway and Staffordshire: Scott
Coventry: Wells, Collins, Palmer, Moody, Beck, Mickelwright, Husbands
Ireland: McNulty (Sligo), Kealy, Murphy (Carlow) Connolly, Gillen, Powell, Ryan, Moore, Martin
Davis from I don't know where originally
Stahl, Russia to England to USA

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 14 April 07 12:59 BST (UK) »
The Scottish use of borders to denote relationship to the main line is very complicated.  For the first generation.

The eldest son uses a red label until the death of his father. His eldest son using the fathers shield without the label. 
The second son a gold bordure (border)
The third son a blue border
The fourth son a red border
The fifth son a black border

These borders are passed as are the following on to their respective eldest sons and so may be repeated in later generations.  In the third generation the borders become more complex, being engrailed for the second son of other than the first son, invected for the third son, indented for the fourth son etc.  In the fourth generation the border is split in two vertically (per pale) for the second son using the colour for the next son (above) in the sinister half.  Thus the second son of the first son of the second son will have a border which is gold in the dexter half and blue in the sinister half, while his brother the third son will be red in the sinister half. 

The border used in the shield we are considering would seem to come from an even later generation showing a fairly weak link to the main line.  I would guess a line from the second son to the sixth generation where it would be the arms of the second son.  That is a fourth cousin of the main line.

The direct line beyond the second generation use the family coat of arms with male siblings using the same brisures as used by the English but usually placed centrally instead of in chief.  The second third and fourth children of the eldest son use line variations within the shield which correspond to the border variations of their first cousins mentioned above (engrailed, envicted, indented)

CORRECTED to correct the colours and expand the explanation.

David
 
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk