Elder family, Old Raploch farm

[NancyElderPetersen]

My ARGYLL research page for ELDER has: 
a THOMAS ELDER b. in BALQUHIDDER:
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~nancyelder/ed/Argyll.htm

 LDS PERTHSHIRE christenings printout from OLD PARISH REGISTERS
Thomas ELDER
christening
19 Dec 1779
Balquhidder
Parents:
Thomas ELDER
and
Alexandrina Walkinshaw

Ancestry.com
***
1851 ARGYLL Census
Name:   Thomas Elder
Age:  74
Estimated birth year: abt 1777
Relationship:  Head
Gender:  Male
Where born:  Balquhidder, Perthshire
Parish Number:  540
Civil parish:  Kilchoman
County:  Argyll
Address:  Gruinard Mill Croft
Occupation:  Farmer Of 8 Acres
ED:  5
Page:  1 .
Household schedule number:  1
Line:  1
Roll:  CSSCT1851_114
Household Members:
Name  Age
Jane Carmichael  4
Martha Carmichael  35
Thomas Elder  74
Christina McEachern  15
**
also found ELDER  in CAMPBELTOWN, ARGYLL
in
"CAMPBELTOWN LIFE" by Donald Keith
http://www.dkeith.clara.co.uk/campbeltownlife/part9.htm
Alec ELDER's bike shop (about 1945, during WWII):
....
One warm summer's day I decided to hire a bike and proceeded to
Elder's shop. Within the owner was hunched over a bike, re-spoking a
wheel. As I entered he looked up sharply.
 "Whit dae ye want wee boy?" he asked, spitting a stream of tobacco
juice on the floor.
  "Can I hire a bike for an hour."
   Elders eyes gleamed. "Whurs yer shullin?" he asked, "av got tae be
carefu fur rascals can slip awa wie a bike an no pey me"....

--Nancy Elder Petersen
(*)
Host, ELDER DNA project
of Houston, Texas
DNA results:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ELDER

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[greenvalley]

Hi NancyElder,

thanks for that information. I knew that Thomas was in Kilchoman in 1851, the question is why? He's in his 70s and his married daughter Martha Carmichael and her daughter are staying with him, but her husband isn't. larer, in 1861 they are all living near Stirling again.

I have been unable to establish a family link between Thomas ELDER and the other Argyll Elders.

He's from Perthshire, but lives in this relatively small area between Port of Menteith and Stirling for most of his life.

The stay in Islay is puzzling to say the least. Do you have any other information that may tie him to the Elders in Campbeltown? Although both Kilchoman and Campbeltown are in Argyll, they are not close by and separated by water.

Greenvalley

[NancyElderPetersen]

Sorry, no more connections found,
 but did see a current ELDER name--I wonder if Dr. Malcolm R. ELDER
would help:
His Campbeltown address:
at
http://www.totaltravel.co.uk/travel/scotland/strathclyde/kintyre/listing/shopchemists/10789204
List of GP's - Dr. MALCOM R ELDER
Address
Carradale
Argyll
Campbeltown Argyll PA28 6QG
UK
Phone number:
01583 431376
***
SEARCHING  ELDER and TARBERT town
found:
http://www.lochgilphead.org/maguides/divisionnews.html
Girlguiding Argyll
Mid Argyll Division
Tarbert District Changes
Mary ELDER has taken over from Margaret Soudan
as District Commissioner for Tarbert District.
She will also be job sharing the Division Commissioner function with Rowena Ranger.
See e-mail contacts for Mary ELDER.

*****
and
Dr. ELDER  of Carradale, Campbeltown -2006
NHS Highland
Argyll & Bute CHP Management Team Meeting
22 August 2006
Lorn & Islands District General Hospital, Oban
"9.1.2 GP Out of Hours " (OOH) (maybe emergency hours?)
..."John also advised that currently there is no provision for a GP OOHs in
the Carradale and Skipness area. The GPs in Campbeltown currently do
not wish to take on the provision of cover for this area, a meeting has
been arranges with the Campbeltown GPs for September. Meantime Dr
Elder has agreed to continue to provide OOH cover. "

Also:
Carolyn Shearer, of Franklin County Pennsylvania sent me a note about
our ELDER research in Pennsylvania- -as possible connection in ARGYLL.
She wrote:
 >Was doing some data entry on the Sharps of Cumberland Co, PA. 
All the old bios agree that Thomas Sharp 'born Ireland' married Margaret Elder.   I was doing some searching on the LDS site, to see what anyone said about their marriage date. 
Could not find it, but did get a hit on the baptisms of the first 5 children.
 They were all baptized in Campbelltown, Argyll, Scotland. 
Maybe they were not Scotch Irish after all, but Scots straight from Scotland.  ..
The Campbelltown baptisms read like a census of early Cumberland and Franklin Co's:  Elders, Stewarts, Witherspoon, Alexanders, Armour, Barr etc.

Nancy Elder Petersen
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder

[greenvalley]

Hi Nancy

thanks for that 

I have all the lines (well most of them) of Thomas ELDER, born 1779 in Balquhidder and his offspring for quite some time and my own line to the present. (Minus some rellies who went to Canada in the beginning of last century. We misplaces their address.

The real question is where his parents Thomas ELDER and Alexandrina WAKINSHAW came from. I can't find a marriage for the pair or any other previous information. If you look at the birth registration the text infers that the couple weren't married, or that's what I think. It reads

Alexandrina Wakinshaw late in Glenbeich had her child baptised and called Thomas in ? she fathers upon Thomas Elder in Glenbeich

If the David Elder who dies in Raploch farm in 1862 is a relation, then it must come from the missing father's side.

Which is the link I can't find.

I hope this still makes sense to you.

Greenvalley

[NancyElderPetersen]

Thanks for the added info!  Could the missing location be
"Comrie Parish Church?"   I love the Scotland maps!

Google.com for "Glenbeich" - found map including Balquhidder
in Comrie Parish - PERTHSHIRE
at
http://www.stilwell.co.uk/show_town.asp?Q=bb%7CL4133222

and
COMRIE PARISH CHURCH
at
http://www.perthpresbytery.org.uk/churches/churches.php?id=12
    "Comrie Parish Church has its origins in mediaeval times.
    The present congregation occupies what was the second Free Church building to be erected in Comrie, dating from 1881.
The site, on the bank of the River Earn, is a particularly attractive one. The parish stretches half way to Crieff, to the East, and half way to St. Fillans, to the West. The congregation enjoys good relationships with the smaller congregations of the Scottish Episcopal Church and Roman Catholic Church in the village."
 Burrell Street
Comrie Perthshire PH6 2JP
***

--Nancy Elder Petersen
Vancouver, Washington State, USA
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder

[greenvalley]

Thanks Nancy,

No, the missing location isn't Comrie Parish church - in those days Balquhidder and Comrie were 2 distinctive parishes.

I found his on the Scottish national Archives

tMemorandum of a tack of lands of easter and wester Glenbeichs by James Goodlatt Campbell of Auchlyne to "Thomas and Thomas Elder - dated 15 April 1777

This is about the time that Thomas ELDER was born, and I assume that one of the Thomases mentioned is the father. Problem is, I can't find them anywhere.

It looks like the were never born....

I also found the marriage of a William ELDER in Balquhidder in 1797. He's from Balquhidder and his bride Margaret McDONALD is from Comrie, but no entry of a birth for William Elder either.

William and Margaret later have a child, Thomas Elder, born 22/4/1798 and the registration says that the couple in form Glenbeich. I therefore don't doubt that these Elders are related to my illegitimate Thomas, but as I said, they keep disappearing.

It seems that every time I discover another Elder the trail immediately goes cold again. Very annoying indeed.

Greenvalley

[NancyElderPetersen]

That's exactly the feeling I've been having with the Scots in Pennsylvania,
and their descendants, so I asked my brother to help with the DNA study.
We have lots of ELDER lists with "brick walls" all around!
Hoping to find more ELDER families in Scotland to help with DNA.
A new Genealogy DNA lab will open in Glasgow Caledonian University
on June 14, 2007.  May be more "matches" there!

ELDER DNA Case Study as of May 2007:
  "ELDER DNA ANALYSIS finds differences in ELDER lines."
Looking at the "PETER ELDER of Virginia" list, where the
DNA kits for descendants of "SAMUEL ELDER d. 1811 Meigs Co TN"
ARE NOT MATCHING DNA of 4 "PETER ELDER" kits.

SAMUEL ELDER's descendants have
4 MATCHES with "FRANKLIN CO PA"
(using authoritative PA kits, 20 kits total are matching)

see Tennessee, Kentucky and Arkansas matches to FRANKLIN CO PA:
"WILLIAM ELDER" b. 1780 m. Rebecca Cate as
Ancestor of Ann ELDER POE,
(ELDER DNA kits #13706, #23663 as Sevier Co TN)= "Franklin Co PA"

brother
"John S. ELDER" b. 1782 m. Nancy Sullins as
Ancestor of John Silas ELDER b. 1845 TN d. 1913 AR = "Franklin Co PA"
(ELDER DNA kit #85035)

brother
"Jacob ELDER" d. 1818 KY as
Ancestor of (ELDER DNA kit #20638)= "Franklin Co PA"
****

DIFFERENT DNA:
ELDER DNA of "PAXTANG" (Harrisburg) PA is very different from
"FRANKLIN CO PA" and "PETER ELDER" groups.
(5 DNA kits of matching "I=ISLES VIKING DNA in PAXTANG group)

See ELDER surname DNA group charts for codes matching DNA:
MENU: Click Y-RESULTS
at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder

ANALYSIS:
GROUP A = "FRANKLIN CO PA" = (R1b1 Haplogroup)
ELDER DNA kits of Franklin Co PA - match each other
at
13 24 15 10 10 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

GROUP B.= "PETER ELDER" = (R1b1 Haplogroup)
4 kits of ELDER DNA of "PETER ELDER" - match each other
at
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

GROUP C.= "PAXTANG PA" = (I ISLES) Haplogroup- VIKING DNA
ELDER DNA kits of "PAXTANG ELDER" - match each other 12/12
at
15 24 15 10 15 16 11 13 11 13 12 29

DNA analysis reports:
Group A and B have less than 2% chance of relationship to each other
while
GROUP A and B have NO (0%) relationship to Group C.

This is a quite different conclusion than many of the
ELDER family stories and histories we find in libraries,
which often describe these groups as closely related.

I'm beginning to think that more of the women of ELDER families
were related, to make some of the stories ring true.
_________________
Nancy Elder Petersen
Vancouver, WA USA
Retired Librarian
D.A.R. Member #833222
Rev. War Soldier, Robert ELDER (1730-1807) Franklin Co PA

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[greenvalley]

Hi Nancy

thanks for that info.

Unfortunately I don't have a drop of Elder blood in my veins and I doubt very much that any of my in-laws would be willing to take part.

They don't have the genealogy bug like me, you see.

Greenvalley

[NancyElderPetersen]

I'm hoping that some Glasgow DNA announcement publicity will help!

Nancy wrote (May 9, 2007):
TO:  Dr Kiain Balloch
Post Doctoral Reseach Fellow
Centre for Forensic Investigation
School of Life Sciences Charles Oakley Labs
Glasgow Caledonian University

Dear Dr. Balloch,
RE: LORD THOMAS MURRAY ELDER, of Fife Scotland, House of Lords.
     An online article with political names supporting
    Gordon Brown, on May 9, 2007, titled:
"Who's in Whose Camp" -- mentions "LORD (MURRAY) ELDER"

Would it be possible to send a Y-DNA kit to LORD MURRAY ELDER,
asking him to help announce the opening of the DNA lab
at Glasgow Caledonian University, and to compare his Y-DNA with the
current FamilyTreeDNA ELDER project?

Hope that helps!!

Nancy Elder Petersen
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ELDER