ANN / ALICE MANN - A Penny For Your Thoughts

[heywood]

Lyn,
well the Ann and Hannah are interchangeable as mo said so that's ok - usually the 2nd child would be the correct one because as you say the first one would have died (that's logic for you  ) However which one of the ones you mention is a different matter.
I suppose the only way would be to check parish records.
Sometimes I have seen the alleged father named in the parish records so that may be a way to go.
On the other hand your dad is going to be amazed at the intricacies of his family!!
best wishes
Kath

PS 1841 has a Hellen Fishwick 70 yrs pauper living Back Street Chorley - no Thomas or Ann of the right age to be a parent to Ann born c 1796.

[stanleymansion]

Thanks for that Heywood   .

Yep you're right my Dad was totally amazed and there was him thinking he had such a dull family background!

I've had another look at the Ann/Hannah situation and can't quite get my head round the James and Robert thing. I've checked all the records I can and it seems that Ann and Hannah are 2 different people! Ann has parents Thomas and Ellen and is the mother of James b.1818. Hannah has parents Thomas and Ann and she seems to be Robert's, b.1822, mother.  Yet the census information suggests Robert and James are brothers as they each appear, at some point, as a son of Ann/Hannah Rodgett! I think ... Aaaarrrggh... I'm so confused!    I don't think I'm cut out for this family history malarkey, you lot seem to have it off to a T whereas I need a cuppa T!
Cheers )

[Saxlingham]

Hey these are mine maybe we should compare notes!

Louise

[stanleymansion]

Louise

Really? Are Alice and Ann yours as well as mine? If so we really do need to compare notes!! This has been one really difficult nut to crack but I think I've found, with the help of Mo and Heywood, the answer!

Can we do private messaging through Roots?

Look forward to hearing from you,

Lyn 

[Saxlingham]

These have been driving me mad for years. There must have been 2 Ann/Hannahs born at the same time because I found a burial for one in Chorley on the opc site.

This is the extra info I can add.....

Robert FISHWICK's death cert says

Leigh (subdistrict Atherton) in the County of Lancaster 1890
2nd April 1890 18 Hampson Street Atherton USD / Robert FISHWICK / Male / 66years / Operative Cotton Spinner / Humour Disease about the Elbow joint 15 months – Phthisis 3 months – Certified by RJ Martin LRCP / Alice FISHWICK daughter present at the death 18 Hampson Street Atherton   / 2.4.1890

and the cemetery entry is

Atherton Cemetery, New Cem – 290
Robert Fishwick aged 66yrs buried on 5th April 1890
George White aged 5mths buried on 19th May 1891
Betsy Fishwick aged 62yrs buried on 20th January 1896
Elizabeth Ellen Fishwick aged 45yrs buried on 26th April 1897
Winifred Fishwick aged 23hrs buried on 18th January 1913


His second marriage cert says

1867 in the Church of St Peter in the Parish of St Peter, Halliwell in the County of Lancaster
190 / 1867 / Dec 25th / Robert FISHWICK / Full age / Widower / Spinner / St Peter’s, Halliwell/ --/--. Betsy BRADLEY / Full age / Spinster/ - / St Peter’s, Halliwell/--/--.
All4 signed with a mark Witnesses John GREENHALGH and Mary Ann Rideout (nee PILLING)
No fathers for either of them.

Parish entry for first marriage

Feb 8th 1846 St Georges Chorley, Robert Fishwick 23yrs B. Spinner, Leigh Row. Mary Leigh aged 23 S. Cowling.  Married. Fathers:  Hannah Fishwick / John Leigh.

M.cert copy1846 in St George’s Church in the parish of Chorley
286 February 8th / Robert FISHWICK / 23 years / bachelor / Spinner / Leigh Row / -/-
Mary LEE / 23 / Spinster / - / Cowling / John LEE / Collier. All signed with a mark, witnesses John and Alice BROMILOW.

Now I need to sort through the above and see how it fits with the rest of what I have.

Cheers Louise

[Saxlingham]

Hi Lyn

Sorry not Ann and Alice but Robert Fishwick is definitely my ancestor (Great great grandfather). I wasn't aware of your branch at all and need to try to get my head round how they fit in.

Louise

[Saxlingham]

Hi again further information - much of it contradictory..

Hannah's death cert -
1855 Chorley Chorley
81 25th March 1855 Hannah RODGET Female 58 Wife of Thomas RODGET handloom weaver Dropsy not certified The mark of Mary Blackledge Leigh Row Chorley 22.3.1855 George Houghton Registrar

A2A has bastardy bonds as follows. I haven't sent for them yet. Is one for Robert ??

Preston: Michaelmas 1820 - ref. QSP/2773
FILE - Chorley. Order of filiation and maintenance of bastard son of Robert Kaye, labourer, and Hannah Fishwick, singlewoman - ref.  QSP/2773/46  - date: c1820
Preston: Epiphany 1825 - ref. QSP/2841
FILE - Charnock Richard. Order of filiation and maintenance of bastard son of Thomas Shaw, labourer, and Hannah Fishwick, singlewoman - ref.  QSP/2841/59  - date: 1824 30 Nov

The nephew John FISHWICK Hannah has living with her in 1851 appears to be the son of Hugh, son of Roger and Ellen, but the opc has their daughter Hannah dying in 1817 aged 17. There is also a brother William also a sawyer on the opc as son of Roger and Ellen. This is a link but I wonder if the use of the word nephew may be looser; I have found "cousins" who are 2nd or 3rd cousins or more distant relatives still.

If you think the FISHWICKs are bad you should try his wife's family. Betsy BRADLEY uses the name of the head of the household for all family members on the census no matter what the relationship over 3 generations. She doesn't know where she was born or who her father was or the father of some of her children.

My head hurts

Louise

[stanleymansion]

Hi Louise

Wow; this is so...... complicated! I can't believe how much material you have managed to unearth. I had no idea records such as those you've detailed actually existed! I found the site for A2A, it's not one I've come across before but looks really interesting. Not sure whether I'd know how to use it though  don't think I'd even know where to start looking!

Before I launch into this and forget completely, you said Robert Fishwick is your Great great grandfather. He appears to be mine too which in effect makes us third cousins! Do you suppose there could be a lot more of us out there? I guess so, going off Robert's track record so far! I think we became part of the family by virtue of the fact that he had a lull between marriages and took up with Alice Mann to occupy him for a while. Hence the arrival on the scene of my Great grandmother, Ann Mann. Alice died the following year and Ann was brought up by Robert's mum's daughter Ann Rodgett! Ann Rodgett married Isaac Morrison and Ann Mann lived with them! So complicated   I only started tracing my family history two months ago and it's been tough going almost from the start. I've reached brick walls or dead ends on nearly everything I've tried to do! Headache is an understatement!

I haven't concerned myself too much with the Betsy angle but I did notice as I was putting all the details down that everyone seemed to have the same names! Thought it seemed rather odd but I'm reaching the stage where I'm not surprised by this family anymore. I thought I was left with establishing whether Ann or Hannah  Fishwick was Robert's mother and trying to find the father, and working out whether James is actually Robert's brother, half brother or what the hell. It actually seems to be a whole lot more convoluted than this, I think!

Hmmm... I've got it all down on paper but I can't make much sense of it all, like you say there seem to be so many contradictions. I did at one point, a few weeks ago, write down the families of all the Fishwick's I could find but I ended up so confused because it wasn't obvious who belonged to who! They seem to be interchangeable as and when they feel fit! I will have to dig out those pages and have another look.

I haven't come across filiation and bastardy bonds before! How on earth did you manage to dig those up? It certainly looks on the face of it as though the later one is in respect of Robert, b. 1822, and I would think the earlier one is in respect of James b.1818.

So the Hannah, daughter of Roger and Ellen, who died in 1817, and presumably born about 1800, is yet another one to the 2 Ann/Hannah's I'd already got lined up?! Earlier post d/d 1 May refers. Perhaps the Bastardy bonds may provide some answers. Maybe this other Hannah is a red herring although as you say there is the link with the nephew.

Thanks for getting involved; I know I don't seem to have much to offer as you have already done much of the spade work  but it's good to have someone to bounce ideas off! I can't think straight anymore! I shall go away and cry and then try and think some more. Thanks for all the info
Speak soon
Lyn

[andrewalston]

Called at the records office in Preston last night.

Neither of the bastardy orders listed named the child. It seems amazing that there were printed forms for this sort of thing, where the Clerk just filled in the names and numbers. There was even a different form for when the father did not answer the summons.

QSP/2773/46  23 May 1820
Hannah Fishwick, Single woman, hath lately been delivered of a male Bastard Child, in the Township of Chorley

.. did declare that she the said Hannah Fishwick was on the eighth day of September 1818 delivered of a male Bastard Child....
And that Robert Kaye of Chorley in the said county, Labourer, did beget the said Bastard on her Body, and is the father of the same.

..and that the said Robert Kaye hath not appeared before us...

Therefore we order as well for the better Relief of the said Township of Chorley as for Sustentation and Relief of the said Bastard Child, that the said Robert Kaye shall and do forthwith upon the notice of this our order, pay or cause to be paid unto the Church-wardens and Overseers of the Poor of the said Township of Chorley or to some one of them, the sum of Ten Pounds and six shillings for and towards the Charges and Expenses incident to the Birth of the said Bastard Child, and the maintenance of the said Bastard Child, from the time of his Birth to the time of making this our Order, the further sum of twelve shillings for and towards the cost of apprehending the said Robert Kaye and the sum of sixteen shillings for and towards the Costs of this Order of Filiation...

In addition Robert Kaye was to pay Two shillings weekly to maintain the child, and Hannah One shilling and sixpence weekly.


QSP/2841/59  30 Nov 1824
...on the fifth day of April One thousand eight hundred and twenty four delivered of a male Bastard Child..

..Thomas Shaw to pay one pound sixteen shillings for and towards the Charges and Expenses incident to the Birth of the said Bastard Child, and the maintenance of the said Bastard Child, from the time of his Birth to the time of making this our Order, and the sum of sixteen shillings for and towards the Costs of this Order of Filiation..

Thomas to pay One shilling weekly
Hannah to pay One shilling weekly.

The year of birth on the first order looks very strange to modern eyes, with the figure eights written almost sideways.

The first of these orders fits in with the baptism at St Laurence's of James Fishwick, son of Ann Fishwick, of 16 Oct 1818. I looked for the second child in the registers for Coppull, the most likely church for Charnock Richard, Eccleston (next likely) and St Laurence's without success. Maybe my eyesight was failing and I missed him.