Author Topic: Hollands from Horsham  (Read 17205 times)

Offline Maggott

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 19 May 07 19:04 BST (UK) »
Hi  Now the computer has gone phut -I'm using a daughter's today.  Don't go away - I'll get the Holland info up as soon as I can
Best  Maggott

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Offline Maggott

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 20 May 07 17:52 BST (UK) »
Hi  Computer doing its best again.
 So - the Holland family we think the pic shows are the kin of William Holland & Martha nee Charman.  They were b too early to be the subjects themselves, but they had ten children.  The first generation included a John (b 1814) - so I think too old to be in the photo, even if he was still alive.
There was a grandson John b 1849, who seems much more promising
Also a Gtgrandson b 1886, so too young.
As yet I know virtually nothing about any of them.  Any ideas at all?
It's good to have other eyes on the pic - you're all seeing things I didn't notice.  From the original it seems to have been posed out of doors.  Many of the family worked for the Field Place estate near Horsham.
Wedding- hadn't thought of that- but I wonder of the women would have been wearing hats if they'd been to church? But some other family celebration, perhaps?
I scanned in a copy - have been in touch with the cousin who actually has the original & have asked for the photographers name.  I remember I checked & he was on C91 but not C01.
I don't know whether the formidable lady was 4xgt grandmother (Henry & Martha's gdaughter Ann) -I was just speculating.  Incidentally several of them were in the licensed trade-  Selsey Arms Coolham & Hare & Hounds Cowfold.
Any ideas would be most welcome - thank you all for your interest
Best  Maggott

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Offline Jane Masri

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 20 May 07 18:59 BST (UK) »
Here we go with the marriage of William & Martha,

Horsham, West Sussex,   21 Nov 1799:
 William HOLLAND, bach
 Martha CHARMAN, sp (B)

From the IGI extracted records baptism's for their children all at Horsham;

Nanny (from the actual register which I have it might not be Nanny, difficult to read) 16/11/1800
Mary 21/3/1802
William 6/11/1803
Henry 17/2/1805
James 20/7/1806
Richard 6/1/1808
George 5/11/1809.  Buried 18/8/1813
Thomas 31/3/1811.  Buried 24/8/1813
John 21/8/1814
Edward 2/6/1816
Fanny 2/10/1822

So of the males, that leaves, William, Henry, James, Richard, John & Edward.

William (1803) Possibly married;

 Horsham, West Sussex,   14 Jan 1827:
 William HOLLAND, bach
 Elizabeth RAGLASS, sp botp (B)

Henry possibly married;

Horsham, West Sussex,   10 Apr 1833:
 Henry HOLLAND, bach
 Harriet DEANE, sp botp (B)

James possibly married;

 Horsham, West Sussex,   23 Oct 1827:
 James HOLLAND, bach
 Rebecca GIBSON, sp botp (B)

Richard possibly married;

Horsham, West Sussex,   21 Oct 1834:
 Richard HOLLAND, bach
 Charlotte SEAGRAVE, sp botp (B)

John possibly married;

Warnham, West Sussex,   23 Mar 1839:
 John HOLLAND, bach farmer otp
 Mary BURDFIELD, sp otp
 wit; Helen & Geo. B.; Jane STONE

Edward has gone off my radar & there's nothing showing at the moment on FreeBMD.  Maybe someone can look for an Edward Holland born Horsham 1816 on the 1841 or 1851 census to see who he's with (if anyone)

The 3 gents (who all look like brothers to me) seem to be in their late 40's, early 50's, so if this photo was taken around 1895 that gives them a dob of about 1845 - 1855, quite possibly children of the younger males mentioned above as they married later, John or Edward?

I noted that there are 3 gents & 4 ladies, 3 wives of the gents & a sister?

Any objections if I send this link over to the photo experts for their opinion as to the photograhs date?

I'm going to look for any burials of this Holland family in the pr's to rule out any of the males, so I'll get back to you on that.

jane

 

 

 

 

 




 
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Offline Maggott

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 20 May 07 20:33 BST (UK) »
Hi  I didn't know about the Burdfield marriage but the others are all familiar.  My ancestors are Harriet &  Henry via daughter Ann & William Wood.
Do please copy the pic to anyone who may be able to help.  There really is a strong family likeness isn't there- similar eyes, as you suggest.
Along with this group portrait there were two photos of two of the guys, taken when they were younger.  One was the chap at the back, who I mentioned, the other was the man on the right hand end of the seated row. Both taken in a studio from the look of it & just their top half. No writing (apart from John Holland) or other clues.

Again with many thanks

Best,  Maggott

Offline lizdb

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #13 on: Monday 21 May 07 12:19 BST (UK) »
Just surmising, but i wouldnt say it was a wedding.

The men are not generally im suits, but rather 'sports' jacket and trousers, and one seems to have a cravat rather than a tie, which speaks of 'upper class' casual wear.
At least one female has a skirt and blouse, rather than a dress, again I would have thought that was more casual than formal.
So I would say it is more of a social occasion rather than a formal occasion.
It is almost like they are out on a jolly old family picnic and decide to take a family photo! But having a professional photographer makes it more planned and organised, rather than a family snapshot. Maybe that is how it worked, as people didnt have their own cameras in those days.
So - why would they pose outside, in 'smart casual' wear?
Was it cheaper than inside as the photographer didnt need flash?
Cant see any wedding ring on any of the women's hands, where their left hand is visible. But not that clear.
Will keep looking and thinking
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Offline Jane Masri

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #14 on: Monday 21 May 07 15:21 BST (UK) »
Hi Maggott, can you elaborate on your connection, do you mean Henry who married Harriet Deane in 1833, through their daughter Ann?
I'm going to stick my neck out a bit & suggest the photo might have been taken later in the 1890's perhaps 1898 - 1900.  The younger ladies would have been more likely to have been up-to-date with their fashions than the older one's & blouses & skirts were popular in the late 1890's rather than the tight bodices the older ladies are wearing.
Did you notice that the gent in the middle is holding something between his fingers?  I've zoomed into it but I can't make it out.  Another observation is that it looks like high summer with the trees & hedges in full leaf.
Liz, it's certainly a family occasion, maybe not a wedding or christening.  The gent on the right is wearing a tie with a wing collar not a cravat.  Me thinks that 'formal' attire for country folk would look like this, with the high-buttoned jackets, waistcoats & pocket watches.
I too looked for wedding rings but couldn't spot any.  It looks like a lovely day, so either the photographer set up a little seating arrangement in the churchyard & plonked down the family groups or they invited the photographer along to their house after a church ceremony & took all the photo's in the garden.  I still feel it's some form of family occasion as if they had decided to have a family group photo they would have all trooped along to the photographer & done it there as I'm sure that sort of thing was regarded as a family outing :)

jane
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Offline old rowley

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #15 on: Monday 21 May 07 19:01 BST (UK) »
I would agree with the date given by Jane in her first posting on this subject as being c1895. The sleeving known as Leg of Mutton was introduced into ladies fashion for the second time in 1893 and went out of fashion in 1897. From what I can make out all the women are wearing a seperate bodice and skirt and although there are difference's to the collar areas all have full sleeving from shoulder to wrist which again fits in with Janes date. The men are all wearing ties and again each outfit that they are wearing is different. The gent on the end is wearing a sack coat which would be fastened at the top button only, as shown here. The gentleman at the back has a half smoked cigar in his hand whilst the gentleman sitting in the middle of the group has his cap in his left hand and a small cigar or cheroot in the other hand.

old rowley
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Offline Jane Masri

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #16 on: Monday 21 May 07 19:09 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that Old Rowley...only I can't see a cap  ::)  His right hand is obscured & his left is holding something but I wouldn't have said it was a cheroot or cigar as it's between the thumb & next finger not perhaps the way a cigar would have been held....more correctly held by the gent standing behind.

jane
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Offline old rowley

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Re: Hollands from Horsham
« Reply #17 on: Monday 21 May 07 19:25 BST (UK) »
Hi Jane,

re the gentleman holding a cap. If you look at the woman sitting in front of him to his left you will see that there is a darker grey (to his suit that is) circular area which is to the right of her face (as you look at it) and is above her shoulder, this is what I am referring to as his cap. On blowing the picture up it does come across abit clearer than shown here and you can see a form and shape to it more better.

old rowley
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