Author Topic: A change of SEX!  (Read 15789 times)

Offline PaulineJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,099
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #27 on: Friday 18 May 07 18:36 BST (UK) »
Playing devil's advocate,
How can you be so certain that you have the birth certificate of  'your' particular Eliza Hartshorn, and not another?.

Other posts of yours attest to family stories that her father was Joseph...

Just what details are shown on EACH document that you hold which DEFINITELY relate to your Eliza, rather than any other.

A crude search on the transcribed birth indexes reveal several candidates born in that time frame. Which of the many have you elimininated/are still unaccounted for?

Pauline
All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
======================================
Brown 1800-> Woolwich (Kent)  Barnett 1800-> Woolwich (Kent)
Pannifer 1830-> Deptford (Kent)  Brierley in Staffordshire(Pre-1875)
Walters in Middlesex(Pre-1875)  Clift,Gould in Devon/Cornwall

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline DJH

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #28 on: Friday 18 May 07 19:22 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your interest and help. As you can see I am confused and not sure where to look. The information I have which I know to be true is:

1887 Eliza Hartshorn gave birth to my Grandad in the Union Workhouse at Atcham.
His name was John William and his father was William Kennedy (not named on cert. but known to be true)

1891 Living as the "wife" of Ezekiel Hutchinson and son John William aged 4, in Newcastle upon Tyne.

1898 In Carliol Prison, Gateshead for being 'drunk and disorderly' as a result of which Grandad was taken to the Industrial School, Newcastle.

1901 Eliza was lodging with a couple called Ward in Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire and Grandad was still in the Industrial School.

1906 Eliza married Abraham Hill at Ashby. Grandad came down looking for her and to finish his Printers apprenticeship in Ashby. She said she was 37 and her father was Joseph a collier (I did find a Joseph in the Londen area aged 19 who could have been her father ?)

1911 Eliza died aged 43

That is all I know and I still can't find her parents. I must be missing something I think.
David

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online avm228

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 18,597
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #29 on: Friday 18 May 07 19:47 BST (UK) »
David, as I mentioned in yesterday's thread...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,233342.msg1249096.html#msg1249096

...I do think it's dangerous to try to work *forward* from Elizas (or indeed Elijahs) in the 1860s to try to establish a connection with your Eliza who was in Ashby de la Zouch in 1901/Newcastle in 1891.


Edited - of course there's nothing wrong with trying to find Elizas who fit the bill, but what you *know* (so far as I understand it from yesterday) is the 1891/1901 information, rather than that the 1865 Brace Meole birth is the right person :)

Anna
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline DJH

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #30 on: Friday 18 May 07 20:15 BST (UK) »
Hello Anna,
I do agree with you but I just don't know how to work back from what I have. This is why I am flailing helplessly. The information I am getting is helping me to cross some ideas off and pursue others.
David

Offline PaulineJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,099
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #31 on: Friday 18 May 07 21:07 BST (UK) »
Ok, keeping it brief as I'm cooking...

1887: Anything in the minutes/records of the workhouse about her?
          Where is Atcham?

1891: Her stated age & birthplace? who else in the family unit? age birthplace(s)

1898: Anyting regarding age/origins/associates in the court/prison records?

1901; Age & birthplace, who are the Wards, (Traceback through census)?

1906: witness name(s), address(es)?
     

> (I did find a Joseph in the Londen area aged 19 who could have been her father ?)
What does this comment mean? I know of no place called londen and an age of 19 means nothing without saying when & where this sighting occurred.....

Off to stir the pans...
Pauline
All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
======================================
Brown 1800-> Woolwich (Kent)  Barnett 1800-> Woolwich (Kent)
Pannifer 1830-> Deptford (Kent)  Brierley in Staffordshire(Pre-1875)
Walters in Middlesex(Pre-1875)  Clift,Gould in Devon/Cornwall

Offline CatOne

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,774
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 19 May 07 08:09 BST (UK) »
In 1891 she looks to be aged 24 and born Shropshire Shrewsbury, no other people in houshold (just Ezekial (30), Eliza and John W (4))  :-\
Dunning/Downing, Osborn/e, Astley -Cheshire/Birmingham/Middlesex
Fanthorpe/Hall/Driffill/Storm - Lincolnshire
Bower/Woodward/Bingham/Pettinger/Shaw - Nottinghamshire
Shaw, Marland - Lancashire
Broph(e)y - Queens County, Ireland
Richards - Neath Swansea
Hunt/Fox - Lincs, Waterfield/Middleton - Staffs
Hart/Harland/Askew/Scales - Yorkshire
Brereton/Vickers - Cheshire
Gleaves/Sandford/Hulse/Hulme - Wolstanton/Audley Staffs
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov

Offline tazzie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,234
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 19 May 07 09:25 BST (UK) »



  Hi David...

  Have been looking around ..has this one been suggested?

  RG11/2643 F57 PAGE 4

  LONGDEN  Pontesbury Shrops.

  Edwin Hartshorn  h m m 40 Pontesbury  coal miner
  Sarah                   w m f 37     "      "
 ELIZABETH            D U F 13     "       "
 Annie                    d u f   10     "      "    scholar
 Adda                     d u f   8      "       "     "    "
 John                      s u m 4      "       "     "     ".

  The age now fits with age at death of 43 in 1911 b @1868
              and  telling son John she was 37 in 1906 b @ 1869.


                      Tazzie
Liscoe -all
Green/Simpson/Underwood-Beds
Walker/Foulkes/Fookes/Fooks/Hedges/Lamborne-Bucks.
Stanton/Pattrick/Cooper/Fitzjohn/Holland/Spalding-London
 Rewallin/Underwood -Devon
 Casbolt-London/Cambridge
 Favell/Favel - Lincs-Beds

 This information is Crown Copyright from
   www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline DJH

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 19 May 07 09:29 BST (UK) »
This could be her but I don't know how to verify it.

I am trying to reply to Pauline but keep losing all the information before I can post it!!!!!!!!!

Offline DJH

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A change of SEX!
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 19 May 07 09:37 BST (UK) »
1887. No records - they were lost in transferring to an archive!Atcham is near Shrewsbury.

1891. Living as Mrs Eliza Hutchinson with Ezekiel her husband and John William Hutchinson her son aged 4 years. Aged 24 and born in Shrewsbury.

1898. No details in prison records or even age.

1901. Living as a Boarder with Mr and Mrs Ward (I cannot trace them to a link) She was 31 and single and a laundress.

1906. She was 37, a spinster still living in Market Street, Ashby de la Zouch. Her witnesses were Sarah Dolman and George Davis both of whom I have been unable to link to her.

In 1871 a Joseph hartshorn aged 19 years and a coal miner was living at Longden Common near Shrewsbury. Ten years later he is still living there married to an Eliza!