Pickstock

[AdrianB38]

  OK - you got me a jibbering wreck here, trying to sort this lot out. I had no idea that education record was there for Charlotte, so brilliant spot!

As for who Isaac is, I can add a bit now. The key is Ancestry's "Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900" - these are very badly named as they have nothing (much) to do with Canada. Instead, the ones I've seen today are WO25 Description Books for the British Army - they simply refer to regiments that, at some time, served in Canada - the soldiers may have gone nowhere near. (Not sure if they've even a/v on a UK only subs). (And they don't always have a description in, either!)

Isaac is also in FindMyPast's "Napoleonic War - Regimental indexes 1806 Transcription" but the source for that appears to be the same books as Ancestry filmed. Isaac is in WO25/339 in the 14th Foot. It gives his birthdate as 8 June 1790 and he joined that regiment on 8 June 1805. Forget Ancestry's index that he was born Hitchen - that's a misinterpretation of " marks as ditto marks, whereas I'm sure they're just showing where the line is. He then moved to the 12th Veterans Battalion on 3 August 1808 (at all of 18y old!). And the Veterans is where he was in the reference to Charlotte.

His 1790 birthdate means he is not Richard the tailor's brother (he does have a brother named Isaac, but he was born in the 1770s. Nor can he be Richard the tailor's son as he has, according to Witton's registers, a daughter Nancy born 7 April 1790 (as mentioned above) - far too close, if the facts are written down correctly.

There is also that young Richard Pickstock who I mentioned - he is also in the WO25 books. He is 16 in the book, born Manchester parish, a tailor, joined the 84th Regiment on August 1808, so Ancestry reckon he's b abt 1792, deserted Nov. 1808. Too many Pickstocks for coincidence?

So I seriously have no idea who "Veteran" Isaac and "Deserter" Richard are, in terms of who their parents are. But Isaac Pickstock is such a rare name that I'm guessing he must be one of mine. Maybe Richard the tailor's brother, Isaac, had some wild oats to sow before his 1795 marriage - except that my best guess for his birth is 1776 - surely he's too young to be the father of Isaac the soldier???

Confused I am.........  And I need coffee.......

[barrow girl]

These Pickstocks are so interesting!  And so confusing!  Strong coffee definitely needed when trying to sort them out.  I am following these posts with much interest. Like Adrian I have done lots of searching re Sarah, Richard and Isaac.

  I did have the five marriages as Adrian outlined in a previous post and took the signatures of each certificate to my family history group and all agreed they were from the same hand!  I have also searched extensively for the burial/death of Hannah Pickstock nee Heeley.   I have the burial of a Hannah Pickstock in 1825 and although the dates don't quite match I feel that this is a strong contender for the 4th wife of Richard.  On the marriage certificate the age is not clear and maybe when she was buried no one knew her exact age.  But then this poses another question.  Why did Richard go to London and then marry Frances?  And where was he between 1808 and 1820?

 What has puzzled me is where Charlotte fitted in - the information above really helps to put her in the picture as a relative of Richard. And such an unusual record.  But who is her father?  In the rate books for Manchester I have a Richard and Isaac living at different times in Thomas Street, Carpenters Lane and Dean Street.  The strange fact is that the address is given as a public house.  This does not fit well with Richard being a Wesleyan Methodist so maybe not the same family.  But as Adrian has pointed out the names are quite unusual.  Brother Isaac was certainly in Manchester, his death announcement in the Cheshire Courant of January 1831 states that he is a tailor of Northwich, lately of Manchester.  Richard seem to disappear about 1807 and then Isaac about 1813, when the new occupier is a Joseph Pickstock.  I am wondering if they were the owners rather than the occupiers and sublet the property.  Mr Pickstock (which one I am not sure) was recorded in an advert in Manchester Mercury of 1808 as living in the Sign of the Millstone on Thomas Street.  Or is this a red herring!

I am going to slowly digest the last post from Adrian.  Somewhere I have seen a post that suggests that Charlotte was the niece of Frances Gravette, the daughter of her sister, born in Madeira.  I have some notes somewhere about that family - the sister's name didn't match or make sense but maybe Frances had a sister Sarah.  Worth a look.

[AdrianB38]

.... 1813, when the new occupier is a Joseph Pickstock ....

I noticed that Joseph before in the Rate Books - and (deliberately?) forgot him. Possibly because I have no idea who he might be either.... There are one or two people of that name around but none seem likely to be an occupier in Manchester in 1813. "Unless, of course, you know better...."

Curiouser and curiouser... It's beginning to feel like we have a hole in the data - I might believe we'd got Shropshire Pickstocks (who I haven't studied) going up to Manchester, were it not for the fact that both Richard and Isaac can be absolutely connected to Northwich / Witton.

[barrow girl]

  Another small piece of the jigsaw - I have found a marriage for "Veteran Isaac", father of Charlotte.  Via family search and Findmypast there is a marriage in June 1809 in Stoke Darnerel, Devon of an Isaac Pitchstock and Sarah Williams.  Looking at the image it could be Pickstock but it also states that Isaac is a Private in the 2nd Royal Veteran Battalion so I think this is our man.  Stoke  Darnerel is in Plymouth and this is where the 2nd RVB was stationed before leaving for Madeira in July 1809.  No baptism found for a Charlotte in Devon.

But it does not help us with the father of Isaac!!

[AdrianB38]

Oh well done there!!!

I'd absolutely agree that it's our "Veteran Isaac". ("Veteran"? He was all of 18 when he transferred! Could be he was suffering from something? After all, if his daughter goes out to SA with Richard P, one senses that it does not end well for Isaac.)

For anyone who isn't up with the Veteran Battalions, I found this link:http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Infantry/Regiments/c_Veterans.html

[rhoosesue]

Fabulous information about Isaac and Sarah. It's a pity that the birth dates given for Isaac and Nancy seem to rule out Richard being Isaac's father, and hence Charlotte's grandfather. It would explain why Richard moved to London if Charlotte had been sent to a charity school there. I think Isaac must have been a close relation. I have seen a tree on Ancestry which says that Isaac Senior (Richard's father, who died 1815) was one of a large family of siblings, so if Isaac was a family name Richard may have had at least one cousin called Isaac!

If Richard moved to London to help look after Charlotte, perhaps Hannah died in London? I have looked, but no obvious candidates. Have been away overnight and just got back, so am a bit cross-eyed. Will try to think it though a bit more tomorrow.

[AdrianB38]

Found some more minor stuff for Isaac Pickstock. Ancestry has UK, British Army Muster Books and Pay Lists, 1812-1817 and there are two entries in here for him:

Name:    Isaac Pigstock
Start of Muster:    25 Dec 1811
End of Muster:    24 Mar 1812
Stationed or Muster Place:    Maidstone
Regiment or Unit:    2nd Veteran Battalion
Piece Number:    11119

Name:    Isaac Pigslock
Start of Muster:    25 Dec 1814
End of Muster:    24 Jan 1815
Regiment or Unit:    2nd Veteran Battalion
Piece Number:    11119

Now, there are a couple of things to note here. Firstly I can't blame Ancestry for getting the Pickstock names incorrect - the writing has more style than legibility and I can't swear that the originals do read Pickstock but it's virtually impossible that they're not him.

Similarly, I'm reasonably clear that "Maidstone" is actually "Madeira"!

Also - why the gap? Well, the filmstrip consists of 768 images of what I think is one physical book, TNA ref WO 12/11119. The book seems to consist of a number of quarterly muster-books / pay-lists (not sure if there is a difference) for the 2nd Veterans, all bound together in date order(?). It's my belief that Ancestry have only indexed the first and last pay-lists in the book - I easily found Isaac in the next quarter (sort of Q2 for 1812) but the page was not indexed, and neither are others in the middle of the piece that I've checked. So, I think he would be in every quarter from (sort of) Q1 of 1812 to the last list, which is actually for just one month, ending 24 January 1815. Why that date? Because 20 January 1815 was when 2nd Royal Veteran Battalion was disbanded (I'm not looking for exact matches to within a day).

So that seemed to take Isaac up to January 1815 - which was not quite what I expected, as I thought that the RMA School was for orphans and Charlotte had started there 6 January 1815, while her father turns out to be very much alive. Or at least, being paid as if he was.

However, http://www.richardgilbert.ca/achart/public_html/articles/york/history.html is about the RMA and right at the bottom of the page is a link to miscellaneous correspondence from researchers - follow that and it seems that there are codes in the Admission Register that indicate whether the father is dead or alive. In other words, it seems like Charlotte need not have been an orphan on admittance after all. So Isaac may well have died after 1815.

What I intend to do is get down to Kew and have a look at the originals of the Admission registers to see what might be there, that isn't in FindMyPast - such as the code for whether Isaac is alive or not. There's also correspondence ledgers for the school and who knows what might be in them. Not sure when I can get but hopefully not too far off - Richard is definitely one of my Pickstocks, so this is bugging me as well!

[rhoosesue]

Good find! I must be very stupid (didn't sleep too well last night) as I can't see where on the Ancestry record it actually says "Maidstone", to see whether it reads "Madeira".

Will be very interested to hear of any confirmation or otherwise you get at Kew

[AdrianB38]

As I recollect, it says "Maidstone / Madeira" on the index (statement of the obvious) but on the images, you have to page to the end of the muster-book / pay-list. You then get to what would have been the outer cover of the original. Like many of these, it seems to have been designed to be folded with a short title / summary visible on the outside. It's there that it says whatever it says. Unless my memory is playing me tricks and it was a couple of pages in from the end! It's somewhere round there... (I've not saved the images yet because I'm not really sure what I need to save from a muster-book)

Adrian