Author Topic: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)  (Read 4187 times)

Offline heywood

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 40,655
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 25 February 16 09:13 GMT (UK) »
The  baptism may well be speculation - there are other possibilities as Garstonite and Tina pointed out earlier.
Brutus, do you have any details of the earlier trials- places etc?

Whilst searching I found this http://gransdenfamily.com/gransdenf/pafg119.htm which has little concrete evidence of place of birth etc.

Regards
Heywood
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline heywood

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 40,655
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 25 February 16 10:07 GMT (UK) »
There are some brief reports in newspapers - no personal detail.
1806 offence - 'stealing apparel from a dwelling house' where he was sentenced to death according to court book and report in Lancaster paper August 1806.
There was a mention of 'mercy' so presumably that was given!

Summer 1809 he was acquitted of Burglary.
October 1809 - Larceny - transportation for 7 yrs
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Tina Bean

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 25 February 16 11:06 GMT (UK) »
Ah, OK that makes sense.
Indeed Gentleman Smith is a very shady character. So far I don't have confirmation of the birth place.

However, I do now have a bunch more information. See attachment as putting it into the message is too large.
I have included the link where I found that information at the end.

The Australian Newspaper Index Trove is coming back online over the next couple of days as well and I have found another bunch of Newspaper articles that I will have a look at over the next couple of days to see if there are any options in any of that stuff.

Thanks everyone for looking further. I am really pleased to see how well this search is going and how willing people are to help out.

Tina


Offline Tina Bean

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 25 February 16 11:12 GMT (UK) »
I also found this which gives some rather interesting and colourful information about John Smith.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/john_smith.htm

Tina


Offline Brutus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 27 February 16 13:36 GMT (UK) »
    Thanks, Garstonite for pointing out the discrepancy in the birth/death of that James.  It looks like it must be another.  It's seven years since I made the original post, and about twenty seven or more years since I did much research in that quarter.  Back then, one did ones research by peering at microfiches in council libraries, or at indexes at the archives reading room in the Sydney CBD (now moved to western Sydney), and copies of anything were done by Xerox.  Also by writing letters to the State Archives, enclosing a cheque, and popping the letter into those red boxes which used to be on street corners.  Computers ran an operating system called CPM, Wordstar was the only word-processor worth talking about, and the internet was dial-up.
    However, as to whether his name was James Sidebottom at all, I remain reasonably sure that it was, so he must be another.  Unfortunately, there are quite a few.  The correspondance with Governor Macquarie is fairly definite, and it would have been a very dangerous game to try to delude Him, and get a pardon under false pretences.  You would need to like the feel of a rope around your neck to try that on.
    On the subject of his character, an attitude of John Smith bashing seems to have developed in recent years, mostly coming from some authors at the Newcastle Uni, and distributed by the Maitland Council Information service.  What is obvious is that there was considerable jealousy from members of the "establishment", most of whom were not doing as well as Smith was.  A number of recent publications completely ignore the fact that he was also guilty of philanthropy!!!  There exists a public letter from several of his tenants thanking him for remission of a quarter's rent, after a flood.  There are numerous cases where he had a hand in improving the quality of roads, or farming practices.  A correspondent of mine, a descendant of James, his eldest son, informed me that on one occasion, when some relative of their's was bankrupt and all his possessions were being sold off, John Smith bought up the property at a bargin basement price, then when the man had made a recovery some years later, sold it back to him at the price he had given at the bankruptcy sale.  Then there is the very substantial assistance he gave to Caroline Chisholm.   
    Any view on his "crimes" should also consider the social structure which existed in the early 1800's, all the 1700's and earlier.  The members of the "establishment", called the "quality" by the great unwashed, could commit murder and get away with it, at worst a hurried departure to the Continent and few years exile was sufficient.  This is well illustrated by the complete failure of the attempt by some to bring the captain of the "Hell Ship" the 'Neptune' to justice.   Conversely, the theft of a scrap of cloth by one of the common herd was sufficient for a death sentence.  Conversely in another direction, it was entirely possible to committ a social solecism of such magnitude that the offender was cast into the outer darkness, particularly if the offended person was in high places.

     Tina, I will contact you via the private message system when I have scanned the Will'  It's 10 or more pages, and very complicated. It may be a few days before I get to it as we are rather busy at present.

     Heywood, thank you for your interest. I think I have everything which has survived regarding the earlier trials.  An academic cousin of mine, who hangs out at Oxford, was pushed by her mother into doing an extensive search.  She sent me a number of newspaper reports, and the prosecutor's bills, but was told by Lancaster archives that the documents of the actual court proceedings had been stored in a cellar during WWII to protect them from German bombers, and the cellar had been flooded, and the contents pulped.   Unfortunately, that is just the material which could have told us the crucial details about our James Sidebottom.
Regards, Brutus
Ridley, Clark(e), Westerby, Peel, Hartley, Stevens, Smith, Bryan, Dean, Edwards, Button, Porritt, Nixon, Cheaney, Stephenson, Burrow.
Northumberland Border Reiver Clans & their history.

Offline Tina Bean

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 28 February 16 00:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Brutus,
thank you. My Mother in Law actually had a copy of the Will. I thought she did and I asked her for it years ago and things happened so I didn't get it. So I now have a copy of the Will and need to spend some time reading it. As you say it is very long and complicated.
I would be really interested in getting the other information that you have though. I will be going through the information that my Mother in Law gave me the other day and seeing if I can find anything further of use to either of us. Unfortunately I don't think that she has much more on the Smith family. She is searching for some information but the majority of the information that she did have was stolen. It was in her aunts house in a fashionable suitcase and someone broke in and stole the whole suitcase with all of the information in it. It seems that the world is conspiring to help James hide his origins.
The letter that you mention, I also have a photocopy of. Some of the works are illegible in the photocopy. Do you have a better copy? Or more full and correct details.
I think that John Smith or (Gentleman Smith) as he was known, bashing may have occurred at the time just as much as it does now. I came across a piece in the news paper the other day which had one person running for the position of Alderman. In it he was running on a platform that was aimed at getting 'John Smith' to be treated the same as any other man and to have to pay the same proportion of rates as other men, for the amount of property they owned. This man did not get enough votes to become an Alderman. So I suspect that John Smith was a bit of a character and did both good things and bad things during his life. What a surprise, that makes him just like anyone else and also makes him much more interesting to research because it means that he has much more depth of character.

Thanks again, looking forward to hearing more from you. My original research into my own family, was also initially started in the days before computers and word processors and by writing to family members and individuals. So I understand where you are coming from.

Tina

Offline Brutus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 08 March 16 10:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tina,
Sorry to take so long.  Glad you have got a copy of the Will.
I have a transcript of the letter done by somebody else, (with another interesting bit on the same page).  I also looked the letter up on Trove, (Maitland Mercury), and did a screen grab and then ran it through my image processor, the result is fairly legible, and might be better than the copy you have.
Will contact you by the PM system, and give you my email address, it might be easier to exchange information that way.   
Brutus
Ridley, Clark(e), Westerby, Peel, Hartley, Stevens, Smith, Bryan, Dean, Edwards, Button, Porritt, Nixon, Cheaney, Stephenson, Burrow.
Northumberland Border Reiver Clans & their history.

Offline felicia smith

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 25 February 17 17:11 GMT (UK) »
hi my name is Felicia smith i have been doing my family history and it shows that I am a relation of James side bottom or john smith as he  now called and would like copy's of any documents and photos of him and his family and I don't want any of the documents going to people who are not related to him with respect please you can email me on (*) thanks

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page:  http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php

Offline Brutus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: James Sidebottom (or Sidebotham)
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 28 February 17 09:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi Felicia,
      Glad to hear from another descendant  of Sidebottom, alias Smith.   How are you connected? That is, from which of his numerous children, etc.
      To the best of my knowledge, no photos of him exist, and though photography was invented before he died, box-brownie cameras certainly weren't.  There is, however, a copious paper trail, some of it readily accessible via the NSW Archives.
       If you make two more posts, we can correspond privately by the personal message (PM) system.
Regards,   "Brutus".
Ridley, Clark(e), Westerby, Peel, Hartley, Stevens, Smith, Bryan, Dean, Edwards, Button, Porritt, Nixon, Cheaney, Stephenson, Burrow.
Northumberland Border Reiver Clans & their history.