Hugh Wagstaff/Margaret Weir

[rainmont]

Hi Catherine,

I don't blame you a bit for being confused, especially when it comes to the two Hughs.  That's a good question regarding why we assume this Jean Wagstaff is Jean M.S. Brown. 

Here are some thoughts...

Jean's husband Joseph Wagstaff died 1833, so we know that Jean would have been a widow in 1841.

All of the other Wagstaffs in Newmilns in the 1841 c. are Jean and Joseph's children and their families (no indication of a second Wagstaff family in the area).

As you say, the age fits.  There are no other known female Wagstaffs that would be this age in Newmilns, except for Jean the wife of Joseph.  It's possible, of course, that this is another Jean Wagstaff that we don't know about.

We have this OPR burial record for 19 Feb 1847 (from Claude Wrathall's transcriptions): "old Weddaw Wagstaff Tounhead Newmilns She is intered in the northmost Graff of George Smith Lair in the Brouns new Ground at the west dyke."

(note she was buried in the "Brouns new Ground")

These burial records go back to 1811, and we have no other burial record that indicates the death of Jean.

There are no other Jean Wagstaffs (except for her descendants) that appear in the census after 1841.

So, I guess our assumption is based on the age of Jean Wagstaff in the census, and circumstantial evidence.  This certainly could be flawed, but based on what we know I feel pretty good about assuming this is our Jean Brown.

Best,
Trish

[runningbear]

hi all,

back to stephen's original question on john born 1824....

john married elizabeth downie on the 19/7/1844

1851 census- toppa

john...age 27...tea dealer's shopman
elizabeth...age 30
john...age 4
james...age 1
elizabeth downie...niece...age 5 (dau of james and mary mckinlay)

1861 census- coylton

john...age 37...farm labourer
john...age 14...farm labourer
james...age 11
hugh...age 9
william...age 6
elizabeth downie...age 15...housekeeper

stephen if we stop here for a minute...

william was born 25/1/1855 i suggest you get on to sp website for his birth details as they will contain a lot of info about john and elizabeth.

the pringles play a great part in this family, as of yet i have not made the connection between the wagstaffs and the pringles.

1871 census- hillhead

john...age 47...labourer
elizabeth...age 51
james...age 21...grocer
hugh...age 18...pupil teacher

also at home with john is the niven family (mother catherine mclymont pringle)

sevaerance...age 14...born singapore
margaret...age 14...born singapore
annie...age 11....born sinapore
agnes...age 11...born singapore
jane...age 9...born singapore
robert...age 8...born singapore
james...age 6...born coylton
john...age 4....born singapore

**** their father james parker niven must be travelling back and forth from singapore (maybe with tea??)

also with john is janet morrison (nee pringle, dau of john and janet campbell)(seaman's wife) is he also bringing back tea???

janet morrison...sister-in-law...age 48...visitor
janet morrison...niece...age 21

1871 census- 134 high street, ayr (lodging with david frazer)

john...age 24...grocer
william...age 16...grocer

1881 census- hillhead

john...age 57...labourer
elizabeth...age 61
janet morrison...niece...age 30...dressmaker

1881 census- lorne row, coylton

william...age 26...coal miner
susan...age 27
william...age 4
james...age 2
john...age 11 months
hugh mcdowall...stepson...age 9 (born 17/6/1871 to susan mcdowall)

1881 census- 11 queen street, st quivox

john...age 33...commerical traveller
martha...age 25
john wilson wagstaff...age 3
minnie sillars wagstaff...age 1

1891 census- hillhead

john...age 67...labourer
elizabeth...age 71
john pringle niven...nephew...age 24...student of law...born singapore

1891 census- lorne row, coylton

william...age 36...coal miner
susan...age 37
william...age 14...coal miner
james...age 12...coal miner
john...age 10
george...age 8
lawrence...age 6
campbell...age 5
elizabeth...age 3
hugh mcdowall...stepson...age 19...coal miner

1891 census- main street, auchinleck

john...age 44...grocer
martha...age 35
john w...age 13...pupil teacher
james d...age 8
martha w...age 5
hugh w...age 1

1901 census- cumnock road, hillhead

elizabeth...age 85

1901 census- lorne row, coylton

william...age 46...coal miner
susan...age 48
william...age 24...coal miner
james...age 22...coal miner
john...age 20...coal miner
george...age 19...coal miner
lawrence...age 17...coal miner
campbell...age 15...coal miner
elizabeth...age 13

1901 census- main street, auchinleck

john...age 54...grocer
martha...age 45
james...age 18...chemist's assistant
martha...age 15
hugh...age 11


i hope this is of some help


Joe

[cat30]

Hi Joe,
just to let you know that John married Elizabeth Pringle in 1861 after the death of his first wife Elizabeth Downie in 1857.

In the 1861 census other boarders in the building include Elizabeth Pringle and her father, sister Janet Morrison and her children, Janet and William. 
In the 1871 census, John and Elizabeth Pringle Wagstaff were joined by the Niven children after the death of her sister Catherine in Singapore in 1867.
James P Niven and John P  Niven from Edinburgh erected a headstone in 'affectionate' memory of Elizabeth and husband John in Coylton Churchyard.

Regards
Cat

[runningbear]

thanks cat,

see the marriage of john and elizabeth 6/12/1861

do not wish to divert from the wagstaff's but was'nt that wonderful of the niven children.....

here is their mum in the census.

1841 census- arthurson, coylton (pringle family)

john...age 50...farm labourer
janet...age 50
catherine...age 13

1851 census- hillhead (pringle family)

john...age 61...farm labourer
elizabeth...age 32...housekeeper
janet....age 30...seaman's wife
janet morrison...grand-daughter...age 1...seaman's daughter

1861 census- coylton (pringle family)

john...age 71...former farm labourer
elizabeth...letter carrier
janet morrison...age 40
janet morrison...age 11
william morrison...age 8

1871 census- 15 high main street, dalmellington

william morrison...lodger...age 18...mineral borer

home of james murdoch

1881 census- hillhead (morrison family)

janet...age 59...former cook
william...age 27...fireman in coal mine

1881 census- 15 warrender park terrace, newington (niven family)

agnes...age 26...dividends
jane b...age 19...dividents
james p...age 16
john p...age 14

1881 census- 374 st.vincent street, glasgow (home of jessie mcbeth)

robert niven...lodger...age 18...shipbroker's clerk

1891 census- hillhead (morrison family)

janet...age 72...former cook

1891 census- coylton (morrison family)

william...age 38...coal miner
annie...age 30
janet c p...age 8 months

1891 census- 100 elderslie st, glasgow (home of william balloch)

robert niven...age 27...clerk
james niven...age 22...student of medince

1901 census- hillhead (morrison family)

william...age 48...coal miner
annie...age 39
janet...age 10
william...age 7

1901 census- 29 myrtle terrace, edinburgh (home of john mathieson)

john niven...age 34...law clerk
james niven...age 36...managing law clerk


hope this may be of help


Joe

[honestman]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for all your hard work in answer to my question. Lots of the stuff I already had but lots I had not got round to yet so thanks for saving me and any other Wagstaff researcher a lot of hard work.
The Niven connection with John has always interested me and as you say how good of them to erect John and Elizabeths gravestone.

Thanks again Joe

Stephen

[batchen2001]

Hello
Sorry to join in half way through this thread but Im trying to locate more information about the Singapore  Nivens. Is there any chance any of you have more information. My great great grandmother was Catherine Mcniven of Islay and we know this Niven family came from Islay but Im trying to find the link. Many thanks

[batchen2001]

Just to add to the above thread re Niven of Singapore
He was a Nutmeg plantation owner and also did the layout for what later became the Singapore Botanical Gardens- I have his name as Laurence Niven.

There is also a connection of Robert Burns to Nivens

[runningbear]

hi pal,

warm welcome to rootschat.

if anything a researcher finds a nightmare it is having 2 james niven's born in singapore... not just 2 james's but what about 2 robert's!!!!

going by my earlier posts it looks like that robert in 1881 census is yours, and in 1891 he is with his brother james in 101 elerslie street, glasgow. here maybe be your link to argyll.

1901 census- dunaverty cottage, southend, argyll

doctor james niven...age 32...reg-mall practitioner...born singapore
elizabeth y....age 25...born england
laurence...age 8...born glasgow
florence n b...age 3....born england


1901 census- 9 crown circus road, partick, glasgow

robert...age 37...shipping manager...born singapore
janet...age 30
laurence...age 1


so if these nivens belong to you where are the others???


Joe

[runningbear]

1881 census- eglinton arms hotel, alloway street, ayr

robert niven...age 27...clerk

could this be him?


Joe