Author Topic: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast  (Read 4440 times)

Offline philipsearching

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 22 February 17 22:43 GMT (UK) »
It may be a red herring, but FindMyPast has indexed, from Ireland Diocesan And Prerogative Marriage Licence Bonds Indexes 1623-1866, an 1831 entry for a William Corner and Sarah Bell, diocese of Armagh.


You are a star!  That is a brilliant find!  Cor(d)ner and Bell on the same licence bond is very exciting.
Thank you so much
Philip
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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 23 February 17 11:55 GMT (UK) »
more from tithes
Corner, Charles-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, Chas.-Townland: Drumne Kerne Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Chas.-Townland: Drumne Kerne Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Chas.-Townland: Tullydagon Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Chas.-Townland: Tullydagon Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Christopher-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, Christopher, Jr.-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, Christopher, Sr.-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, David-- Townland: Cavanacaw Year: 1832-Lisnadill-Armagh
Corner, Edward-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, Eleanor-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, George-- Townland : Killyrudden Year: 1834-Mullaghbrack-Armagh
Corner, George-- Townland: Drumbee Beg Year: 1832-Lisnadill-Armagh
Corner, George-- Townland: Killyrudden Year: 1834-Kilclooney-Armagh
Corner, Henry-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Henry-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Henry-Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Henry-Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Henry-Townland: Tabberhewney Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Henry-Townland: Tabberhewney Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, James-Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, James-Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, James-Townland: Mullabrack Year: 1827-Tullylish-Down-
Corner, James-Townland: Mullabrack Year: 1834-Tullylish-Down-
Corner, Jane-- Townland: Derrylaste Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, John-- Townland: Derrylaste Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, John-Townland: Ballyblagh Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, John-Townland: Ballyblagh Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Richard-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Liscorran Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Liscorran Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Tullydagon Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Robt.-Townland: Tullydagon Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Thomas-- Townland: Moyraverty Year: 1834-Seagoe-Armagh
Corner, Thomas-Townland: Drumnemore Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Thomas-Townland: Drumnemore Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Thomas-Townland: Lurgantarry Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Thomas-Townland: Lurgantarry Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Thos.-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Thos.-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Thos.-Townland: Dougher Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Thos.-Townland: Dougher Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Thos.-Townland: Lurgantarry Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Thos.-Townland: Lurgantarry Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Thos., Sr.-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Armagh
Corner, Thos., Sr.-Townland: Cornikinigar Year: 1833-Shankill-Down-
Corner, Widow Jane-- Townland: Derrytranse Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, William-- Townland : Druminnis Year: 1834-Mullaghbrack-Armagh
Corner, William-- Townland: Derryinver Year: 1833-Montiaghs-Armagh
Corner, William-- Townland: Druminnis Year: 1834-Kilclooney-Armagh
Corner, William-Townland: Ballyworfey Year: 1830-Hillsborough-Down-
the Corners also start 1800 on genes for Armagh area
Gracey Gracie Gracy Grassy Greacy
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Offline philipsearching

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 23 February 17 14:57 GMT (UK) »
more from tithes
the Corners also start 1800 on genes for Armagh area

Thank you so much for all this information.

Could I be terribly cheeky and ask if Francis BELL is on the 1833 tithes?  I am a little concerned that William COR(D)NER is in Ballylane in 1827 but doesn't show in 1833.  If Francis BELL is in Ballylane in 1833 it would suggest that William died or moved.

UPDATE
A relative has just e-mailed me a suggestion that William CORDNER married Sarah (no surname) in Derryinver in 1831 and had children Eliza, Charles, William, John, Margery, Mary-Jane, Elizabeth, and Sarah-Ann, but can't remember where the information came from and has no documentary evidence.  I will see if I can track this down and prove or disprove it.

After spending years in hibernation, William might be coming into the open!

Philip
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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 23 February 17 18:15 GMT (UK) »
Bell, Fran.-Townland: Carricknadarreff Year: 1829-Annahilt-Down
Bell, Francis-Townland: Ballyvally Year: 1828-Seapatrick-Down
Bell, Francis-Townland: Langarve-Camlin-Antrim
Bell, Francis-Townland: Lenygarve Year: 1826-Camlin-Antrim
Bell, Frank-Townland: Ballyvally Year: 1828-Seapatrick-Down
Bell, Fras.-Townland: Ballymartin Year: 1835- Carnmoney-Antrim
 
the tithes are incomplete my index is an index to an index etc, mine took 3 weeks with mistakes to reach the level of imperfection say 95%  but what i was indexing was already known to be imperfect. The originals are the way foward,  the index is not trustworthy but useful,    but  church records are much much more complete if they exist good luck
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Offline philipsearching

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 23 February 17 18:44 GMT (UK) »
BallyaltikilliganG - you are my hero of the day (and co-hero of the week!).

It seems likely than the tithe index for 1833 does not cover Ballylane so I will have to keep hunting for other sources.  Derryinver (see earlier posts) is a nice new lead for COR(D)NER.

I think I'll have to take out a new subscription (EmeraldAncestors or RootsIreland) as I'm not able to travel there.

Many thanks.
Philip
Please help me to help you by citing sources for information.

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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #23 on: Friday 24 February 17 09:24 GMT (UK) »
Finishing any help I can offer, Scotsmum has given you intriguing leads, following up the Ireland Diocesan And Prerogative Marriage Licence Bonds Indexes 1623-1866, an 1831 entry for a William Corner and Sarah Bell  The original records were destroyed in the Public Record Office explosion of 1922 so its just the index. NAI state The original records were destroyed in the Public Record Office explosion of 1922, but indexes survive, and record Protestant marriages as far back as 1623.   I don’t know if this means Presbyterian etc or not.  The fact the C of I was involved would suggest to me that the Cof I records for kilclooney  might have something. 
PRONI Church record guide   downloadable https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records gives
KILCLOONEY, CO. ARMAGH
C.I. Kilcluney (Armagh diocese)
[Part of Mullaghbrack parish before 1794 – see also under MULLAGHBRACK]
Baptisms, 1832-; marriages, 1835-; burials, 1837-. so I looked at

C.I. Mullabrack (Armagh diocese)
[Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin i.e. baptisms, 1737-63 and 1813-75, marriages, 1737-63 and 1812- 45, and burials, 1737-60 and 1813-74]
the following is on microfilm Baptisms, 1764-83 and 1799-1811; marriages, 1767-83 and 1798-1811; deaths, 1732-62 (5 entries); vestry minutes, 1764-89 and 1826-1905; preachers’ books, 1842-74 and 1907-21; subscription book, 1901-22; Sunday School attendance book, 1917-32; notes on families in Mullaghbrack parish, 1847-51.
Extracts from baptisms, marriages and deaths relating to the Beck family, 1804-48.
Baptisms and burials, 1875-1935; marriages, 1845- 1935.
 my summary suggests you don’t have the right surviving years for your baptism but you might pick the surnames in earlier burial records etc if by chance your relatives were buried in a Cof I graveyard. if you think possible contact Jaykim and see if he could look for you.
 
The Armagh museum is worth writing too.


I found your ref Schedule of tenants - FHL film 1279357.  Parcel map PRONI ref  T/1176/5. reproduced on line at http://www.igp-web.com/armagh/townlands/Ballylane.htm  its well written and a source I knew nothing about, I reproduce some extracts for others to evaluate the source
Ballylane Tithe Applotments  [also spelt Ballylean]
No tithe applotment records survive for Ballylane.  There were definitely some tithe-free townlands in the area around Ballylane, does anyone know whether Ballylane was tithe-free or whether the tithe records don't exist for some other reason?  Fortunately, an even better alternative exists.  (See the next section.)
Ballylane Survey by the Earl of Charlemont (1827)
In 1827, Francis William Caulfeild, 5th Viscount Charlemont and 2nd Earl of Charlemont, had a survey taken of many of his properties in County Armagh and Count Tyrone.  For Ballylane, the result was a wonderful schedule of every tenant and subtenant in the townland, with a description and the area of each parcel.  Each parcel was numbered, and there is a large matching numbered map of Ballylane showing precisely the boundaries of each tenant's parcel(s).  The adjacent townlands of Ballymacnabb, Clady More and Clady Beg were surveyed at the same time, and others, as well.  The schedule of tenants can be found on FHL film 1279357, but the map has to be gotten directly from PRONI where it is in found T/1176/5.  There was also a survey of bog leases done at the same time. I have not included the several columns describing the pasture good bad or reclaimed bog etc and acreage
144 Thomas Blackstock   Thomas Blackstock   etce   5
145   Elizabeth Heron   Andrew Heron   etc   5
146, 147   William & Thomas Corner   Thomas Corner   etc   3
148   do   William Corner   etc   3 etc   
Total in lease to William & Thomas Corner 6   
149, 150   Francis Bell   Francis Bell   4 etc      
Total in lease to Francis Bell
152, 153   John Bell   John Bell 6 etc                          
154 to 156   do   do   1                              
Total in lease to John Bell etc
notes The numbers in the left-hand column correspond with the matching numbers on the Earl's survey map of Ballylane.  The Area is given in English acres, roods and perches, where a rood = 40 perches and an acre = 4 roods.  One English acre = 43,560 square feet.
to have such a map for ones family history is great.

good luck onwards
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Offline scotmum

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #24 on: Friday 24 February 17 09:39 GMT (UK) »
There was a William Cordner, and wife, living at Derryinver in 1842, as a number of newspapers record, in their Assizes, a matter concerning a neighbour not using money given to him by Cordner for the purpose intended (to do with paying back instalments on a loan Cordner had obtained from Lurgan Loan Fund).
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Offline philipsearching

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #25 on: Friday 24 February 17 12:01 GMT (UK) »
There was a William Cordner, and wife, living at Derryinver in 1842, as a number of newspapers record, in their Assizes, a matter concerning a neighbour not using money given to him by Cordner for the purpose intended (to do with paying back instalments on a loan Cordner had obtained from Lurgan Loan Fund).

That is a good find.  I had seen son William's bankruptcy in the 1860s, but not gone further back.  I will put on my running shoes and rush off to follow the trail (or with my arthritic knees, hobble steadily rather than run!)   :D

Many thanks, scotmum!
Philip
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Offline philipsearching

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Re: Guidance needed - Cordner from Belfast
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 21 March 18 16:11 GMT (UK) »
Time to revive this thread.

The marriage of William Bell CORDNER (aka William Thompson CORDNER) to Eliza Aldwell SANDYS in 1860, his business dealings, travels, and descendants have been extensively covered in this thread and http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=248602.0

But who were William's parents and siblings?

Putting together all the information (from indexes, surveys, newspaper reports etc) we have a family:
William CORDNER esq, farmer, died before 1860 (possibly married 1831 Sarah BELL).
Unknown daughter
Unknown daughter
Anne died 1861
William Bell born 1840, married 1860, died 1881
Thomas born c1847 died after 1861

We also have:
Henry CORDNER - witness to William Bell's marriage in 1860
Francis and John BELL - neighbours of William CORDNER in Ballylane in 1823

Unfortunately, I still haven't found baptisms for any CORDNERs or Sarah BELL.

William Bell was married in a Presbyterian church, but two of his children were baptised in St Lawrence RC church Dublin - so was he Catholic? - I don't know (his wife was of Church of Ireland descent).

Can any kind Rootschatter help trace baptisms for this family before c1850?  Armagh, Derryinver, Ballylane, Clady Beg are the locations linked to the family.

Philip
Please help me to help you by citing sources for information.

Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk