Author Topic: Tinker = Romany??  (Read 42524 times)

Offline Ermintrude46

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Tinker = Romany??
« on: Sunday 09 September 07 21:57 BST (UK) »
We have long suspected there is gypsy blood in the family - a picture of my grandmother's sister taken in around 1910 shows she had a noticably darker complexion than my grandmother and my youngest daughter was diagnosed last year with Bechets syndrome which is found predominantly in those with ancestry from the area of the old Silk Road.  Now discovered that my grandmother's great-grandfather, Ambrose Burnsides was described variously as tinker, traveller and hawker in the parish records of St Oswald, Durham (early 1800s).  Do you think this means he was definitely of Romany extraction or is it just more likely or can I not draw this inference at all??
Ermy
Baldwin / Dixey / Rumble (Berkshire)
Burnsides / Corps / Harker / HINDLE / Longstaff / Martin / Page (Co. Durham)
Chalker / Glyde / Morris / Pitman / Stroud (Dorset)
BARTON / Heasman / Wheatley (East Sussex)
Baby / Silver / Silvester (Hampshire)
Cheeseman / JONES / Wood (Kent)
Chalker (Somerset)
Curtis / Davis / Stevens (Wiltshire)
Arcules / Carter / HINTON (Worcestershire)
~.~. main lines in CAPS .~.~

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Offline suzard

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 09 September 07 22:57 BST (UK) »
Gypsies are believed to have originated in India and to have gradually migrated to the near east and Western Europe, reaching Scotland in the early 16th century. They generally travelled in family groups and were associated with professions such as hawking, pedling, acting , as tinkers and street performers and most common of all  as fortune tellers.
By the 18th century london and its environs hosted a reasonably large Gypsy population during the winter months. The area around Seven Deals in St Giles in the Fields is believed to have had a regular winter community, but the largest identified group is associated with Norwood in Surrey.

Romany (or Romani) is really their language-although the dictionary gives the following descriptions
Romany
1. Gypsy
2. Gypsies collectivelly
3. Indic language of the Gypsies, its various forms differing greatly because of local influences
4. pertaining to Giypsies, their language or their customs.

There is a book triology
Jessies Journey
Tales from the tent
Tears For a Tinker

by Jess Smith
her autobiography -the story of her wandering years on the road with the last of Scotlands travellers, hawkers and Gypsies
The 3rd book deals with her life when they "settled" in a council house.

Maybe this information may help you to make a decision on your Origins

Suz

Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline suzard

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 09 September 07 23:07 BST (UK) »
also dictionary

Tinker
A mender of pots, kettles, pans etc, usually an itinerant
Scottish, Irish English
a gypsy
any itinerant worker
a wanderer
a beggar

Hawker
a person who offers goods for sale by shouting his/her wares in the street or going from door to door; a peddler

Traveller
a member of any of various groups of traditionally itinerate people living especially in Scotland and Ireland

Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline An65

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #3 on: Monday 10 September 07 08:13 BST (UK) »
Answer:

Not necessarily. But probably more often than not.
Not every Hawker was a Romany either.

Its also worth mentioning that not every traveller was a Romany - there were "Irish tinkers" as well, who travelled Englands roads.

Your comment "Ambrose Burnsides was described variously as tinker, traveller and hawker in the parish records of St Oswald, Durham"

Obviously suggests he was a traveller of some kind, whose winter base was most likely in Durham. Ambrose is a name often seen amongst the Gypsies and travellers, but of course again, not exclusively so.

I would suggest you try and find this family on the census, and see where they lived and their occupations and family ties. The Rom liked to inter-marry and keep their bloodlines pure, so their family links are often the biggest clue of all.

Good luck.



Offline An65

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #4 on: Monday 10 September 07 08:57 BST (UK) »
Ive had a wee look on the Census, and found Ambrose Burnside of Durham, a Hawker in 1891. I also found him with wife Isabella in 1861 still a Hawker in Durham. I am assuming you already have these - So I thought who was Isabella?

Ambrose Burnsides married Isabella Gordon Jan-Mar 1849 Easington Durham GRO Ref: 114/24

Ambrose gave his place of birth in the census as Yorkshire


There was an Ambrose Burnside baptised at Deighton By Northallerton Yks 05.07.1829 s/o Edward Burnside and Sarah Waddington. (This is taken from the IGI which of course is not a fully comprehensive list, so its possible this isnt your Ambrose. I think it is though - see below!).

Now Edward Burnside and Sarah had a bundle of kids at Guisborough, which is where Ambrose thought he was born according to the 1861 census (a nice big clue there).

Mary c.12.10.1831
Benjamin c.07.11.1834
Sarah c.14.03.1840
Isabella c.19.01.1843
Joseph c.06.06.1846

So I thought, what are the others occupations?

Benjamin married Dinah/Diana Lindsley and lived at Chester le Street, Durham, where he was also described as a hawker.

This led me to find Edwards family at Guisborough in the 1851 census:

Edward Burnsides 50 Lic Hawker Tackley? Durham
Sarah 47 Bradford Yks
Mary 17
Benjamin 15
John 12
Sarah 10
Isabella 7
Joseph 3 all born Guisborough.

Interestingly, next door are a few Wilsons described as Tinker/Tinman as well as an Isabella Clark and a Bridgett Moss, Vagrants.






Offline jax

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #5 on: Monday 10 September 07 12:56 BST (UK) »
I found this site recently

http://www.romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/

also am a member of Romany & Traveller Family History Society

http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/

Hope you find some clues  ;D
Jones, Venner, Kenealy, Morphett, Tree, Maxted, Page, all from or around Lydd, Ivychurch, Romney Marsh.
Also
Twyman, Daisy Kent/Thanet Area.
Also
Fidler, Berkshire.  Butcher, Faversham.
Also
Everson Suffolk/Norfolk
Knights, Vann (Wenn) Norfolk
Hilden - Kent and surrounding areas (romany gypsy connections)

Offline An65

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #6 on: Monday 10 September 07 20:37 BST (UK) »
RomanyGenes is a fabulous site. She does however, centre on the South - My own site (seraphim angel have a look in the resources link) centres on the midlands. I know for a fact I have absolutely ZERO on the Burnsides on mine.


All I can really say is this: Kushti Bok! Good luck.

It would appear your family fraternised by the closesness of the Wilsons and Clarks, with some rom families. Whether your own were Rom or Irish or something else Im truely not sure.

I havent seen such names before myself, but that doesnt mean much. Ive seen such names as Sagey Heron and Righteous Gray living in houses as Gorjas sa early as the 1850s, so you never know.

Keep searching xxx



Offline redred28

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #7 on: Monday 10 September 07 21:29 BST (UK) »
HI all,

Burnside is a gypsy name. We have Burnsides in our family but I havnt started the research yet !!

My Grandmother Margaret (Peggy)Burnside (her father was Jim (James)) married James Wilson.

There may well be a connection.
Just thought i would letyou know
thanks
BESWICK
WINTER
WILSON
BURNSIDE
sharpe
smith
JOYNES ELLIOTT NUTTALL DRURY MOSS SWALES GRAY

Offline An65

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 11 September 07 07:32 BST (UK) »
Hi Red, Thanks for that, on the strength of what youve added, I have gone back  to that 1851 record and picked up the names of those Wilsons, as they may well be related by the sound of things.

Guisboro 1851:

Ann Fielding 40 Lodging House Keeper Shelton Yks

with lodgers:

Michael Murray 42 Vagrant Not Known
Henry Moss 24 Vagrant Not Known
William Swainston 44  Vagrant Not Known
James Wilson 33 Vagrant Not Known
John Clark 42 Vagrant Not Known
James Wilson Jr 6 Vagrant Not Known
George Clarke  7mo Vagrant Not Known
Isabella Clark 33 Vagrant Not Known
Bridgett Moss 23 Vagrant Not Known
Eliza Wilson 29 Vagrant Not Known

//

John Wilson Sr 49 Tinker/Tinman Guisboro
Mary Wilson 59 Guisboro
Maurice Wilson 19 Guisboro
John Wilson Jr  16 Shoemaker (app) Guisboro

//

The above Edward Burnsides & Family.