Author Topic: Tinker = Romany??  (Read 44162 times)

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #63 on: Monday 27 March 17 23:03 BST (UK) »
:o :o :o Jesus Wept!!! Hung?! What, for being somewhere?!  :o

Sorry. I'm not too clever with this ancient history stuff. I know it has been punishable by death, just to be a Gypsy, back in the day. But, if that's what's happened here; What about the people they were found 'consorting' with?

Good lord, Yes! Just had a look in The Book Of Bob Sure enough; I reckon this would be the very reference he was working from!
So ..... What? Half of them got strung up, for admitting they'd stayed around a bit? Or what?

Forgive me; I'm somewhat wiped out by all this. Have ye actually managed to work out what went on there?

The Middlesex Sessions Rolls record I linked was during the Elizabethan age. To be fair, Elizabeth is mainly known as tolerant. I think the crime was not to be a Gypsy, but more a crime to act like a Gypsy. I guess it would have been laws designed to encourage integration. It might seem harsh to us now, but the idea was to encourage immigrants to become "good Christians" and assimilate

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Offline Steve G

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #64 on: Monday 27 March 17 23:11 BST (UK) »
Dear god. Just imagine if That was going on, after they released " Snatch "? Half the youth of england would be getting hung, strung and done.

'Mind you; I'll bet the east end would be a lot more recognisable, today, if ye had such laws. 'assimilate or swing'.

So, basically; Those guys were practically martyrs? That's some heave going!
GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & 1800's Berkshire).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')

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Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #65 on: Monday 27 March 17 23:23 BST (UK) »
Dear god. Just imagine if That was going on, after they released " Snatch "? Half the youth of england would be getting hung, strung and done.

'Mind you; I'll bet the east end would be a lot more recognisable, today, if ye had such laws. 'assimilate or swing'.

So, basically; Those guys were practically martyrs? That's some heave going!

Elizabeth took on a country that was deeply divided but she famously said "I do not want to make windows into mens souls"
Metal workers were needed and she was not particularly against immigration but what was expected was that immigrants became good christian followers of the established church, which was the Church of England.
If you notice in the judgement , it seems to suggest that the "Egipcians" mentioned had been given a probationary period to reform their "Egipcian" ways.
I am not trying to downplay what happened, just trying to put it into some kind of historical context.

Offline youngtug

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #66 on: Monday 27 March 17 23:58 BST (UK) »
Quote
It was therefore enacted that after 31st January 1555, any one importing Gypsies should forfeit forty pounds; that any Gypsy so imported who remained in England one month should be deemed a felon, and forfeit his life, lands, and goods, being also deprived of the privileges of a mixed jury, of sanctuary, and of "benefit of clergy," that is to say, ability to read was to be no bar to the proceedings.
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
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Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #67 on: Tuesday 28 March 17 00:08 BST (UK) »
Yet compared to the rest of Europe, was England so bad?
It wasn't that long ago (1850's?) that a Gypsy in some European countries would have been a slave and might have had their nose or ears cut off. Within living memory, in German territory, they might probably have been gassed to death. 

Offline youngtug

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #68 on: Tuesday 28 March 17 01:04 BST (UK) »
It looks like the men who were hung [reply #61]  called themselves "Egipcians" and stayed in the country longer than a month, therebye making themselves felons and subject to be hung.
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY

Offline youngtug

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #69 on: Tuesday 28 March 17 01:12 BST (UK) »
Yet compared to the rest of Europe, was England so bad?
It wasn't that long ago (1850's?) that a Gypsy in some European countries would have been a slave and might have had their nose or ears cut off. Within living memory, in German territory, they might probably have been gassed to death.
Still hardly mentioned, probably half a million died at the hands of the nazi's.
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY

Offline Steve G

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #70 on: Tuesday 28 March 17 01:50 BST (UK) »
Still hardly mentioned, probably half a million died at the hands of the nazi's.

Bit of a pet subject with me, YT.  I have quite the little book shelf here, of books about the Einsatzgruppen.

Ironically, I wouldn't mention it too much either, on here. I'd only be laying myself open to cry downs. Sod the numbers game.

(Look; Mod's? I just got some Really bad news, from, and about, an old and dear mate of mine. It's spreading  :(  So, my thoughts may be getting out of control, as I try to think of how to reply to him? Feel free to nuke me from outer space.)

'Funny' thing this all brings to mind? I was cruising google, one night. Came up with some European Gypsy giving an account of being in a cattle truck. During those times.

Only, it was written as he'd said it; In some pure dialect of Romanes. I got the gist of it. Couldn't really 'believe' that I was getting it right. Because of what I seemed to be reading.

 That this guys mate had some problem. And a nazi guard came up and shot him in the guts. That didn't go so well. So, then, this more experienced creep comes up and says; " Good grief! Don't ye even know how to Kill someone yet? Look. This is how ye kill them. " And puts one through the guys head.

I mean, FFS!

But, yeah, it's mentioned, out there. And, by the way: The next link provided a translation of the entire episode  ::) Could have saved myself a Lot of word mouthing and squinting.
GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & 1800's Berkshire).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')

Offline youngtug

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Re: Tinker = Romany??
« Reply #71 on: Tuesday 28 March 17 10:27 BST (UK) »
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY