Author Topic: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando  (Read 19630 times)

Offline valda 27

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 14 April 12 10:33 BST (UK) »
Jenny 11,
Thought you might be interested to know  I am descended from Charles Grant and his wife Janet  Phin through their elder son, James (born September 1823) who  migrated to Melbourne in 1852     After making an unsuccessful visit to the Victorian Goldfields he married Elizabeth Murray in Melbourne in 1858.  In 1859 he purchased property  in the newly surveyed Parish of Tyabb on the Mornington Peninsula.    He died in Somerville in 1909 and was buried in Frankston Cemetery.     He and Elizabeth were the parents of Elizabeth, Charles, James, John (my grandfather) George and Henry.   In the early days of settlement James and his wife ran the first Somerville postal delivery from their home, and with two other settlers purchased land for a church/school house.     The Grant family became prominent Victorian orchardists, with fruit judged both in Melbourne and London exhibitions.    They also operated large fruit tree nurseries.

I understand that  the 1835 Register of the Waulkmill/Knockando Church of Scotland has a seat reservation for Charles Grant and his wife Janet, and family.     Included are  James and his brother William, who was then under 7 (born 2 June 1833).     William's son, James, born 1855 also migrated to Australia, where - after arrival in 1880 - he lived for some years in Somerville,  with his uncle  James  Grant, before settling permanently in  New South Wales.      Valda 27

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Offline GDub71

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 14 April 12 15:58 BST (UK) »
Hi Valda,

I have you on my family tree, as well as a large number of other descendants of James Grant and Elizabeth Murray. I've always noticed that families who emigrated to Australia seemed to multiply greatly there, while stay-at-home Scots had much smaller families.

The Grant and Phinn families probably knew each other very well, from working together at Waukmill. I take it you know all about the attempts to restore the Woolen Mill:

http://www.knockandowoolmill.org.uk/about.htm

Graham
Banffshire - WILSON, RIACH, CALDER, MUIRY, PETERKIN, CRAIB, OGG, CRUICKSHANK, FARQUHAR, COPLAND, HAY, SHAW, HIND, STRATHDEE, MORRISON, WISEMAN, MOIR, MILNE, SHEPHERD, BLACK, BRUCE, RAMSAY, PEARSON, MCPHERSON, SHEED, MCANDIE
Morayshire - MAVER, RAMSAY, PHINN, SIMPSON
Aberdeenshire - MCINTOSH, GILLAN
Kincardineshire - DUTHIE
Ross-shire - MCANGUS, MCKENZIE, TARRELL,
Inverness-shire - MACKAY, FERGUSON, MACCUISH, BEATON, GILLIES, MACDONALD, MACVICAR, MACDIARMID
Louth - KIERAN, KANE, ENGLISHBY, FEGAN

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Offline valda 27

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 14 April 12 21:21 BST (UK) »
Thank you Graham,  Glad we are on your 'Tree'!

We did not know about the Mill when we visited Knockando many, many decades ago, though a 1970s photo alerted us.    Wonderful effort to know it has been restored to achieve such a valuable place in  history.

In the 1950s we had a large Grant reunion in Somerville of the relatives of of my great-grandfather, James - now the numbers would have doubled!      Glad to have found this link with you all.    Valda

Offline J11

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 15 April 12 11:08 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the information.  I thought I ought to let you know that, as part of the restoration of the Knockando Woolmill Graeme Stuart, the current weaver, is planning a booklet on the woolmill families.  He and I are both looking into whether we can prove that Charles Grant is actually William Grant's son.  It has always been assumed because Charles appeared to take the mill over from William but that is not necessarily the case.  I'm copying you the letters I sent Graeme recently:

"...I've just downloaded Charles Grant and Janet Phinn's marriage record and it says:
"1816 May 7th, Charles Grant in the parish of Cromdale and Janet Phinn in this parish were matrimonially contracted and married."
William and Ann Grant, who were in Dulnain Bridge by this time (she died there in 1812), were in the parish of Inverallen, southern half of Grantown and surrounding countryside to the south, whereas Cromdale was the northern half of Grantown and surrounding countryside to the north.

I've also downloaded the baptism record of the child born in 1816:
"1816 May 4th, Janet daughter of Charles Grant and Janet Phinn in Waukmill baptised.  Charles Phinn there and William Margach in Stripeside (?) witnesses."
Charles Phinn was John Phinn's son, Janet's brother.  Charles Phinn THERE as opposed to Charles Phinn Daisy Farm, etc. is saying that Charles Phinn was at the Waukmill too as the Knockando entries usually name the farm, etc. the witnesses are from.  The only other entry I've seen with a THERE on it is where the groom and witness have the same surname - father and son?

We only know Charles Grant's d.o.b. roughly, i.e. from his age at death in 1843 which is c45.  Ages recorded at death are often out by a number of years; people lie, children get it wrong, etc.  There are 3 Charles Grants born in Morayshire between 1794 and 1800, all in the then united parish of Cromdale and Inverallen.

10.03.1796: parents James Grant and Penuel Grant
30.04.1800: parents John Grant or Morrison and Janet Gordon
29.06.1800: parents Charles Grant and Elspet Grant.

Charles and Janet had four daughters, Janet 1816 (named for her mother), Ann 1821 (named for her maternal grandmother) and 1827 twins Jane and Elspet (named for her paternal grandmother?) which would follow the traditional naming pattern.  I think it's looking possible that Charles Grant is not William and Anne's son but the son of Charles and Elspet Grant, that John Phinn took the lease over from William Grant when William went to Dulnain Bridge, that Charles Grant and Janet Phinn lived at the Waukmill with Janet's parents on their marriage in 1816 and that Charles took over the lease from John Phinn when he moved on or died in 1823.  However, could be wrong.  Daughter Ann could be named for both grandmothers!..."

And another letter:

"...William Grant definitely had a mill at Dulnain Bridge in the early 19thC.  His gravestone at Duthil Cemetery reads:
"Erected by Lachlan Grant in memory of his father William Grant, late Dyer at Dulnain Bridge who departed this life 14th Jan 1822 also his spouse Ann Grant died Jan 1812."

Lachlan was their second son, the first was another William - my 3xG Grandfather. The question I have been pondering is whether William would have kept the lease on Knockando when he also had Dulnain Bridge.  I understand leases in those days were usually for 19 years so he may not have renewed in 1803 going to Dulnain Bridge and then X took over to be replaced by Charles Grant in 1822.  The Kirk Session record could be lagging the event, or the lease may have taken time to renew so Charles wasn't actually signed up until 1823.  If that is so then the family link to Charles Grant is broken and, given the number of Grants in Knockando at the time, there would be no reason to assume a relationship.  William and Ann paid for 3 children, William, Lachlan and Marion, to be recorded in the Kirk Session records so why not Charles if he was one of theirs?  Will keep looking and report back..."


If you have any information that could help sort this out one way or the other I'd love to know.

Jenny

Offline PGrant

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #22 on: Monday 16 April 12 00:39 BST (UK) »
Jenny, I just joined Roots Chat, because I noticed you post about William Middleton Grant from Winnipeg is you Great Uncle - my Grandfather was William Middleton Grant, from Glasgow, moved to Winnipeg after the WW1, had one son my father William, born October 1922, and 2 duaghters, Helen and Margaret. My grandfather relocated to Etobicoke Ontario, worked for Income Tax Canada for many years. My father was a doctor, until he passed July 4th 2009.  I am trying to locate relatives in Scotland and Ireland - my other grandparents are from Belfast.
My daughter is looking at a number of universities in Scotland and near London, as she wants to experience school there.  I have been over a number of times but have never had the opportunity to spend enough time
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Offline valda 27

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 17 April 12 09:08 BST (UK) »
Thank you Jenny for the 'info'.  I did reply but probably not in a correct form.  As a local historian, I appreciate the task before you, and am sorry not to be of much help, having only researched our Australian side.    In Australia, James gave the occupation of his father (Charles Grant) as 'Wool Merchant' on his 1858 Marriage Certificate.   By 1909 it appeared as 'Woollen Mill Owner' on his Death Certificate!   Rather a contrast with  'Dyer' on the 1835 Waulkmill pew list;   'Wool Dyer' on the 1841 Census;  and 'Wool Miller' in the 1875 Deaths - for his 78 year old widow Janet (parents John and Ann Phin - one 'n').  Informant - granddaughter McDonald.

Census returns of course only list those at home - but they do provide a good indication of how people moved around.    If the details of the 1841 census can be accepted as reliable, with Charles and Janet both 45, that would indicate they were born c.1896.  That would make them 20 when they married - rather more likely perhaps than would be the case if Charles were born in 1800?    15 years old for the conception of the child;  and then the birth and marriage at 16 is very young, but not of course beyond possibility.   

Regards, Valda

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 17 April 12 10:05 BST (UK) »
If the details of the 1841 census can be accepted as reliable, with Charles and Janet both 45, that would indicate they were born c.1896.  That would make them 20 when they married - rather more likely perhaps than would be the case if Charles were born in 1800?   

Remember that in 1841 the census enumerators were instructed to round adults' ages down to the nearest 5 years. So someone listed as 45 could actually be aged anything from 45 to 49. Also the census that year was held on 7 June, so someone born in 1791, but after 7 June, would not have had their 50th birthday by census day, and would show up as aged 45.

So if they gave their ages correctly to the enumerator Charles and Jane were born some time between 8 June 1791 and 7 June 1796.
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AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline J11

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 17 April 12 12:47 BST (UK) »
I've widened the search down to 1790 and only one more Charles Grant appears in Moray or Inverness, a son of William Grant and Ann Mann in Ardesier (near Fort George) in 1792.  I think the only chance of a definite result will be the Kirk Session records for 1816 where details of the "antenuptual fornication" are recorded and which may give the parents' names and/or addresses.

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 17 April 12 14:04 BST (UK) »
I've widened the search down to 1790 and only one more Charles Grant appears in Moray or Inverness, a son of William Grant and Ann Mann in Ardesier (near Fort George

Actually Fort George is in the parish of Ardersier.

William Grant and Ann Mann had six children baptised in Ardersier between 1778 and 1792. Their marriage banns were proclaimed in both Ardersier and Cawdor (in the county of Nairn, but next door to Ardersier) so it looks as if they may have been residents there rather than William being a soldier temporarily posted to Fort George.

Quote
I think the only chance of a definite result will be the Kirk Session records for 1816 where details of the "antenuptual fornication" are recorded and which may give the parents' names and/or addresses.

Good luck with that.
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AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith