Author Topic: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando  (Read 19909 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #9 on: Friday 29 April 11 11:51 BST (UK) »
Janet was up before the Kirk Sessions again in 1839 for "being with child by George Donald of Cardnach".

Can you be 100% certain that this was Janet Phinn or Grant, who would have been aged 44 in 1839, and not her daughter Janet Grant?

I ask because the 1851 census lists Janet McDonald, aged 11, as the granddaughter of Janet Phinn or Grant at Waukmill.

There is a baptism on 21 April 1839 of Janet McDonald, born 22 March 1839, daughter of George McDonald and Janet Grant. If it had been Janet Phinn or Grant, I would have expected the register to state her maiden name.

Of course if the Kirk Session minutes mention adultery rather than (mere) fornication, or if it specifies that the mother is Janet Phinn, or says that she is the wife of Charles Grant, that would clinch it.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

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Offline GDub71

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #10 on: Friday 29 April 11 14:40 BST (UK) »
Possible, especially given that Charles wasn't born in Moray. Aged 79 in 1841, he would have been born 1761/2. I wondered if he could be the one baptised in Boharm on 2 November 1761, son of Alexander Phin and Jean Young. Part of Boharm is in Banffshire, so this would make sense.

I note with interest that in 1841 a Charles Phin, aged 15, is in the household of Janet Young, 65, and her family Margaret, 45, grocer; James, 35, schoolmaster and John, 35.

In 1851 Janet Young is listed as 79, born Cromdale, and Margaret (57) and James (50), parochial schoolmaster, were born in Dallas. John Young (48), flesher, is in School House, Dallas with nephew Charles Phinn, 25.

In 1861, James, 60, is schoolmaster, and in the household are his brother John (58) flesher and tenant of land; sister Margaret (67), grocer; nephew Charles Phinn (34), born Knockando; visitor Ann Phinn, widow, 63, born Dallas and George Gammie, visitor, aged 5, born Mortlach. I just happen to know (because this George Gammie married a distant cousin of mine) that George Gammie's mother was one Margaret Phin.


These Young's were the relatives of my wife's ancestor Charles Phinn (born 1792) who married Ann Young from Dallas, who would be the Ann Phinn widow of 1861. The Charles Phinn aged 15 in 1841 is their son. They also had a daughter Margaret born in 1834 who must surely be the mother of George Gammie. She also had children with Surnames Mitchell, Davidson and Burgess, so one more illegitimate child won't make much difference.
Banffshire - WILSON, RIACH, CALDER, MUIRY, PETERKIN, CRAIB, OGG, CRUICKSHANK, FARQUHAR, COPLAND, HAY, SHAW, HIND, STRATHDEE, MORRISON, WISEMAN, MOIR, MILNE, SHEPHERD, BLACK, BRUCE, RAMSAY, PEARSON, MCPHERSON, SHEED, MCANDIE
Morayshire - MAVER, RAMSAY, PHINN, SIMPSON
Aberdeenshire - MCINTOSH, GILLAN
Kincardineshire - DUTHIE
Ross-shire - MCANGUS, MCKENZIE, TARRELL,
Inverness-shire - MACKAY, FERGUSON, MACCUISH, BEATON, GILLIES, MACDONALD, MACVICAR, MACDIARMID
Louth - KIERAN, KANE, ENGLISHBY, FEGAN

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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #11 on: Friday 29 April 11 15:25 BST (UK) »
These Youngs were the relatives of my wife's ancestor Charles Phinn (born 1792) who married Ann Young from Dallas, who would be the Ann Phinn widow of 1861. The Charles Phinn aged 15 in 1841 is their son. They also had a daughter Margaret born in 1834 who must surely be the mother of George Gammie. She also had children with Surnames Mitchell, Davidson and Burgess, so one more illegitimate child won't make much difference.

Yes, I've been doing a bit more investigation. This is the same Margaret Phinn. She actually had at least seven illegitimate children, and as far as I can see they were all by different fathers: George Gammie (1854); Janet Fraser (1857); Charles Phinn (1858); James Davidson (1862); William Phinn (1865); Robert Burgess (1868) and John Mitchell (1876/7), all born in Mortlach. I also have a note from one of her descendants that she always "used to keep an eye on her children and their families and would turn up smoking a pipe".

In 1841 she was listed as a 7-year-old with her parents and elder sister Janet at Haugh of Edinglassy, Mortlach. In 1851 she is listed at Haugh, Mortlach, aged 17, with her mother Ann Young, who is shown as married, but I can't find Charles on FreeCEN. Come 1861 Margaret was on her own at Haugh, Edinglass, aged 26 or 28,depending which transcription you believe, with her birthplace given as Strathdon! In 1881 she was still at Haugh of Edinglassie, aged 47, and still unmarried, with sons James Davidson, 18; Robert Burgess, 12; and John Mitchell, 4. She died in Mortlach in 1909, aged 74, according to the index at Scotland's People.
 
 
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline GDub71

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #12 on: Friday 29 April 11 17:11 BST (UK) »
Janet Fraser was actually Margaret's Niece by her sister Ann Phinn and her husband Alexander Fraser. Their eldest child I believe.
Banffshire - WILSON, RIACH, CALDER, MUIRY, PETERKIN, CRAIB, OGG, CRUICKSHANK, FARQUHAR, COPLAND, HAY, SHAW, HIND, STRATHDEE, MORRISON, WISEMAN, MOIR, MILNE, SHEPHERD, BLACK, BRUCE, RAMSAY, PEARSON, MCPHERSON, SHEED, MCANDIE
Morayshire - MAVER, RAMSAY, PHINN, SIMPSON
Aberdeenshire - MCINTOSH, GILLAN
Kincardineshire - DUTHIE
Ross-shire - MCANGUS, MCKENZIE, TARRELL,
Inverness-shire - MACKAY, FERGUSON, MACCUISH, BEATON, GILLIES, MACDONALD, MACVICAR, MACDIARMID
Louth - KIERAN, KANE, ENGLISHBY, FEGAN

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #13 on: Friday 29 April 11 17:24 BST (UK) »
Janet Fraser was actually Margaret's Niece by her sister Ann Phinn and her husband Alexander Fraser. Their eldest child I believe.

Sorry about that. Actually this Janet Fraser was the daughter of Alexander Fraser and Janet or Jessie Phinn, not Ann Phinn. Alexander and Jessie were married in Birnie in 1856 and Janet or Jessie was their first child.

Anne
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline J11

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #14 on: Friday 29 April 11 20:37 BST (UK) »
Forfarian,

You could well be right about Janet Phinn/Grant, although 44 is not too old.  I checked my source and it says Janet GRANT with no mention of adultery.  In the Mid 19thC women were beginning to take their husband's names in this area.  I don't know which name she gave in the census of 1851, she may still have been using Phinn.  Any daughter of Charles and Janet would certainly have been a Grant.  I wasn't aware they had a daughter called Janet so it may well be her, and the "granddaughter" entry seems fairly conclusive.  Only way to be absolutely certain is to check the Kirk Session records in the NAS.  I only have notes on them in "The Lands and People of Moray - Knockando".

Jenny

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #15 on: Friday 29 April 11 21:16 BST (UK) »
You could well be right about Janet Phinn/Grant, although 44 is not too old.

No, but adultery by a 44-year old married woman who is still living with her husband would have been so scandalous that the Kirk Session could not fail to make a huge fuss about it, and I am sure that Bruce Bishop would not have overlooked something as big as that when compiling his booklet.

Quote
I checked my source and it says Janet GRANT with no mention of adultery.  In the Mid 19thC women were beginning to take their husband's names in this area. 

Yes, but I think in a case like this I am sure the KS would have spelled it out.

Quote
I don't know which name she gave in the census of 1851, she may still have been using Phinn.

Grant.

Quote
Any daughter of Charles and Janet would certainly have been a Grant.  I wasn't aware they had a daughter called Janet

Baptised in Knockando on 7 May 1816 - three days after her parents' marriage so probably born before the wedding.

Quote
Only way to be absolutely certain is to check the Kirk Session records in the NAS.  I only have notes on them in "The Lands and People of Moray - Knockando".

Indeed.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Muirhouse

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 18 June 11 05:12 BST (UK) »
I am a direct descendant of Alexander Phyn and Jean Young, Their Son Charles Phyn and wife Jane Tod, (Achluncart,Boharm and llanbryde) their son John Phyn and wife Margaret Gordon (Boharm, Darklands and Lossiemouth) and their son William Phyn my Great Grandfather.

In a book called Territorial Soldiering North East Scotland there is Roll for the Gordons Northern Fencibles which lists a Johm Phyn who attested in 1793 at age 18.

If you do a search of the Public Reords Office London Webpage they come up with a Robert Phin of Inveravon

Offline GDub71

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 31 December 11 10:44 GMT (UK) »
If you do a search of the Public Reords Office London Webpage they come up with a Robert Phin of Inveravon

I think I know who this is, although it took a bit of thinking:

According to the OPR: Robert Phyn and Jean Young had a son born at Drummin, Inveravon, Banffshire - 1st October 1852 (name not shown or unrecognisable).

The age is right, the location is right and the father is called Robert so...

As far as I can tell, they were the only Phyn's in Inveravon at that time, certainly as regards having children at least! It's got to be him and since he is on my wife's line I might delve further!
Banffshire - WILSON, RIACH, CALDER, MUIRY, PETERKIN, CRAIB, OGG, CRUICKSHANK, FARQUHAR, COPLAND, HAY, SHAW, HIND, STRATHDEE, MORRISON, WISEMAN, MOIR, MILNE, SHEPHERD, BLACK, BRUCE, RAMSAY, PEARSON, MCPHERSON, SHEED, MCANDIE
Morayshire - MAVER, RAMSAY, PHINN, SIMPSON
Aberdeenshire - MCINTOSH, GILLAN
Kincardineshire - DUTHIE
Ross-shire - MCANGUS, MCKENZIE, TARRELL,
Inverness-shire - MACKAY, FERGUSON, MACCUISH, BEATON, GILLIES, MACDONALD, MACVICAR, MACDIARMID
Louth - KIERAN, KANE, ENGLISHBY, FEGAN