Author Topic: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando  (Read 19355 times)

Offline GDub71

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 13 May 12 12:49 BST (UK) »
If you do a search of the Public Reords Office London Webpage they come up with a Robert Phin of Inveravon

I think I know who this is, although it took a bit of thinking:

According to the OPR: Robert Phyn and Jean Young had a son born at Drummin, Inveravon, Banffshire - 1st October 1852 (name not shown or unrecognisable).

The age is right, the location is right and the father is called Robert so...

As far as I can tell, they were the only Phyn's in Inveravon at that time, certainly as regards having children at least! It's got to be him and since he is on my wife's line I might delve further!

Further to this post I made, I have found conclusive proof that Robert Phyn the soldier, "was" the son of Robert Phyn, gardener at Drummin. From Inveravon Kirk Sessions: "1770 - Robert Phyn, son to Robert Phyn, gardener in Drumin, father of a child by Ann Fraser."
Banffshire - WILSON, RIACH, CALDER, MUIRY, PETERKIN, CRAIB, OGG, CRUICKSHANK, FARQUHAR, COPLAND, HAY, SHAW, HIND, STRATHDEE, MORRISON, WISEMAN, MOIR, MILNE, SHEPHERD, BLACK, BRUCE, RAMSAY, PEARSON, MCPHERSON, SHEED, MCANDIE
Morayshire - MAVER, RAMSAY, PHINN, SIMPSON
Aberdeenshire - MCINTOSH, GILLAN
Kincardineshire - DUTHIE
Ross-shire - MCANGUS, MCKENZIE, TARRELL,
Inverness-shire - MACKAY, FERGUSON, MACCUISH, BEATON, GILLIES, MACDONALD, MACVICAR, MACDIARMID
Louth - KIERAN, KANE, ENGLISHBY, FEGAN

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Offline SueM01

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 18 May 16 02:51 BST (UK) »
Hi Jenny,  Charles Grant and Janet Phinn were my 3rd GGrandparents, I just read this post and I was wondering if you ever found out any other information about Charles' parents.

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Offline J11

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 18 May 16 09:35 BST (UK) »
Hello SueM01,

What I have established is that, between the birth of Marion Grant in 1788 and Peter in 1790, William and Anne Grant left the Waukmill in Knockando and moved to Craggan near Granton and then in about 1795 went to Dulnain Bridge where they ended their days.  There is a reference to John Phinn having the woolmill in the 1790s in the Kirk Session accounts, I can't remember the exact date, and he is certainly the tenant when Janet married Charles.  Given the near twenty year gap between William and Anne leaving Knockando, the lack of a baptismal record for a Charles to William and Anne when all their other children are registered and the enormous number of Grants in the area I can't see any reason for him being William and Anne's son.  As my interest is William and Anne, I'm afraid I haven't pursued this one any further.  Sorry I can't help.  Jenny

Offline SueM01

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 21 May 16 00:39 BST (UK) »
Hi Jenny. I've been trying to find an answer to this one for a while. I don't think I'll ever know for sure who his parents were.
Thank you
Sue

Offline pjandj

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 15 April 18 03:53 BST (UK) »
I have also been looking for the parents of Charles Grant as he is my 3x great grandfather.  I came across this discussion and I have something to add to the discussion.
It seems that it is possible that William and Ann Grant are his parents but there is no confirmation of Charles Grant's birth when all their other children are baptised either in Knockando or Cromdale & Inverallan.  I have found a birth record in the 1792 Session Book for Cromdale for an unnamed child born to " William Grant, Litster, Craggon and Ann Grant his spouse had a child Bapt Jan 1st 1792" (a Lister is a dyer of cloth) . I noted that Ann Grant also gave birth to another child in December of 1792 so maybe this is part of the puzzle that a birth record for Charles in that year was overlooked.  It makes sense that Charles may be born in 1792.  The only record of is age is on the 1841 census when his age is recorded as 45.  The census takers rounded an age down to the nearest 5 years so that would mean he could be born from 1792 to 1796.  Another confirmation to this deduction is that on the 1816 marriage record for Charles and Janet Phinn states that Charles was from the Parish of Cromdale.  I realize that William and Ann Grant were by then living at Dulnain but Charles Grant could have been living on his own in the Parish of Cromdale being aged 24.
I would be interested to see what you think of this theory.
Pauline

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 15 April 18 09:24 BST (UK) »
The only record of is age is on the 1841 census when his age is recorded as 45.  The census takers rounded an age down to the nearest 5 years so that would mean he could be born from 1792 to 1796.
8 June 1791 to 7 June 1796 - see previous post in this thread discussing interpretation of ages in the 1841 census
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline J11

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 17 April 18 09:52 BST (UK) »
Regarding the unnamed child born to William and Anne Grant in 1792, there can be a number of reasons why a child would not have its name registered. 
Some registrars in parishes didn't actually record the name of children baptised but just put "a son" or "a daughter".  That doesn't apply in this case.  All the records on the page are written in the same writing and all have the child's name bar this one entry. 
Sometimes the registrar is writing the entry after the baptism and has forgotten the name of the child.  If they normally put a name in they may leave a blank for the name to add later but, on occasion, may forget to do it.
The most common reason for an entry to have no name when all the others on the page do is that the child is dying or not expected to survive.  William and Anne had a child every two to three years with the exception of 1792 when they had the unnamed child baptised in January and Catharine baptised in December.  Although one cannot rely on breast feeding as a method of contraception, most women do find that they don't conceive in the 6 months or so after the birth when breast feeding exclusively.
In the absence of a name for the 1792 birth and no other information, it is impossible to say whether the child survived or not.  I still see no reason for that child to be Charles Grant given the prevalence of the name Grant in the area and that up to a third of baptisms weren't recorded.

Offline pjandj

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #34 on: Thursday 19 April 18 14:12 BST (UK) »
Jenny,
I was thinking that the way to determine if Charles is a child of William and Ann Grant is to compare DNA.  You are descendant from William and Ann's son William and I am descendant from Charles Grant so if Charles is William and Ann's son we should share DNA.  Have you had your DNA done? if so we should compare.
Pauline

Offline J11

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Re: Phinn family - Rothes/Knockando
« Reply #35 on: Friday 20 April 18 10:31 BST (UK) »
No, I haven't had my DNA done.  Even if we found we had a common ancestor it would only tell us that we had a common ancestor, not that it was Charles.  Also, if there was no common ancestor, to dismiss the connection would be to assume that all the connections in my tree are biologically true and not the result of a bit of surreptitious adultery.  It's always possible the link has been broken somewhere.  That is why I rely on paper records. 

The reason you are thinking of William and Anne being the parents of Charles is that William had the tenancy of the Waukmill up to the end of the 1780s and Charles married the daughter of the subsequent tenant Janet Phinn some 15 odd years later.  Were it not for that coincidence, the unnamed child would be very low on the list of possibles.  There were 2 Charles Grants baptised in Inveravon, Banff (the neighbouring parish over the Spey linked by a ferry to Knockando) between 1790 and 1800; and 3 in the parish of Cromdale and Inverallen where Charles was living when he married.  That doesn't mean he was born in Cromdale, just that he was a member of that parish at the time but, even if he was, 1 in 5 of all baptisms in Cromdale for this decade were of Grants.  There are 3 more Charles Grant baptisms listed for Banff county and a total of 19 Charles Grants in Scotland as a whole.  Furthermore, there are likely to be a good half dozen or more unregistered Charles Grant baptisms. I'm afraid, short of finding more documentary evidence, Charles's parentage is likely to remain a mystery.