Convict Search JOHN CARRUTHERS (alias IRVING) was transported to New South Wales

[Amazing]

My ancester JOHN CARRUTHERS (alias IRVING) was transported to New South Wales aboard the Britannia in 1791. I know he arrived, and understand that the prisoners were taken to a government farm at Toongabbie. The trail then goes cold. Can anyone point me in the right direction now.

[trish251]

Hi Amazing - Welcome to RC 

I don't see a reference to a John Carruthers on the NSW archives - but there is reference to John Irving
Looking at the ancestry list of convicts - there is a ? next to the name carruthers & Irving is listed below convicted at Cumberland, August 1790.

There is mention of a John Irving in 1796 under Index to probate records
IRVING   John   1796   -   NRS 2665   [5/1166]   -   391   08/04/1796

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/keyname_search_2187.asp

Would this be a possibility?

There are some other vague possibilities - 1834 - From Col Sec records I think this is another person.

There is this mention In Col Sec
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/indexes_online_3357.asp#ColonialSecretary

IRVING, John

1792 Feb 22
On list of all grants and leases of land registered in the Colonial Secretary's Office (Fiche 3267; 9/2731 p.10)

Do you have details of  his conviction? Was he likely to have been released early & granted land?

Trish

[Amazing]

Hi trish
Thanks for getting back to me so quick.I'll tell you what I've got.

John Carruthers born Brocklehirst, Mouswold, Dumfries
in Scotland 26 March 1747.

Obtained from records in Carlisle, England: Indictment of John Carruthers alias otherwise John Irving or Irwing guilty of the parish of Saint Mary in the county of Cumberland. Labourer and Hugh Monrow late of the parish and aforesaid labourer. Petit Larceny. Carruthers alias Irving guilty to be transported beyond the seas for the term of seven years. Hugh Monrow acquitted. 1790.

Sailed from Portsmouth 27 March 1791 onboard Britannia on 3rd Fleet. 150 prisoners setsail, 129 arrived. Master was Thomas Melville, arrived NSW 14 October 1791.

I have seen him listed as arriving, but that is where my trail has gone cold. I suspect that he used his mother's maiden name of Irving, from then on.

On your mention of probate records does that mean he will be dead? And what does NRS 2665 etc mean?

Your mention of the grant of land seems to early as he would only have been there a year.

I understand prisoners were taken to a government farm at Toongabbie, will there be a record of that anywhere?

Thanks for all your help so far.

Amazing

[trish251]

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about researching NSW convicts but I would think surviving information would be at the NSW archives or the Mitchell library in Sydney. Someone else may add some  more useful information. I know of some very good books with details of what happened to the 1st and 2nd fleeters. Your man was part of the 3rd fleet & I haven't yet found a similar account for the 3rd fleet - googling the 3rd Fleet and/or the ship name may provide more information.

If the probate record belonged to your man - yes - he would be dead - similar to a will - but given he was a convict & a labourer tis unlikely that he would have had anything to leave in a will. The person who received the land in 1792 may be the same person who died. Sometimes when a person with a skill required in the colony arrived as a convict, they were almost immediately given a "ticket of leave" which is why I wondered about your man's crime. A friend of mine researched a Doctor who was convicted of bigamy!! & transported. Within a month of arriving he had set up in practice  and his crime was forgiven.

I would suggest searching the NSW archives re the Toongabbie farm (not just the indexes)

Checking the probate information - the numbers reference a series
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/early-probate_11821.asp

* NRS 2665, Supreme Court of New South Wales, Court of Civil Jurisdiction: Probate papers [Court of Civil Jurisdiction] 20 July 1790 - 14 July 1814, [5/1166]; microfilm copy Reel 391
The Court was empowered to grant probate on wills and administration of the personal estate of intestates dying within the settlement.


This film is available to check at the Rocks Centre in Sydney or the State Records Western Sydney - are you anywhere near there? or in UK? elsewhere?

Trish

[CuriousDiana]

Hello Amazing

Your John Irving may be the one (the ONLY one between 1791 and 1850) who died in 1795.  See bdm.nsw.gov.au

References are V17951175 2A 1795 and V1795509 148/1795. For some reason recorded twice. Unfortunately no parents' names given, nor age.

In that same period there was no death recorded for a John Carruthers.

I researched  2 convicts, mother and daughter, who arrived here in NSW in 1791. They arrived to a small colony of about 4,000 people (over a 1,000 in Port Jackson, over a thousand at Parramatta (your Toongabbie) and over a 1,000 on Norfolk Island..  The people of the colony were starving. There had been a drought and no ships had arrived with food. Most of the convicts who had recently arrived were in terrible condition, and every day people died. If you want some background for these terrible times, I can recomment the following -

David Collins: An Account of the English Colony in New South Wales, Vols 1 and 2, 1789 and 1802.  (this is like a diary of almost daily events by Lieut Collins)

John Cobley: Sydney Cove 1791-1792, Angus & Robertson, 1965.  Also two more covering 1793-1795, and 1795-1800.  Many people who died are mentioned by name in these.

Diana

[trisholdham]

Hi,
Found your Q&A in the magazine Who do you think you are, and as I live in NSW and also a member of a Genealogy Club I thought I would help you as much as I can, I have found the V1795 1175 2a death of John Irving, he was a Surgeon , originaly off the Scarborough" 28 Feb 1790 his sentence was cancelled and all civil rights & privileges were restored - posted as assistant surgeon to Norfolk Island, so he is not your John Irving.
There is a John Irving in the 1802 muster as a servant to a army officer, Parramatta NSW, but will have to look in to that further for you, there is no death for him in NSW will have to look in other states for you, one good thing is our Genealogy Soc does have quite a lot of information on convicts, so leave it with me for awhile and see what I can come up with.
If you have found any other information please let me know. do you live in England?
Bye for now
Trish

[sarah]

Hi Trish,

I am very sorry but your reply to Amazing has sadly just bounced back to us as the email has stopped working

I think that I may have found the right chap and sent a message via a different website, fingers cross that it is the right man.

Found your Q&A in the magazine Who do you think you are,

I was quite interested in how you found this old post, how do you know that it is the same person who has wrote into the magazine ?? quite intrigued...

Any how hope we see amazing very soon.

Regards

Sarah (from England) 

[majm]

Hi Trish,

Welcome to RootsChat, it is a great place to seek and to receive help with family history. 

John CARRUTHERS alias John IRVING/IRWING was convicted at the Quarter Sessions of Peace on 4 Oct 1790 at Penrith, Cumberland, England.  He was sentenced to 7 years transportation beyond the seas, and arrived 14 October 1791 on the Britannia.   

If in England, then TNA ref HO 11/1 PP 71-151, Reel 87 should help. 
If in Australia, then the  NSW State Records Office reference : 4/4003;  Britannia 1781 #13900

John Irving received an Absolute Pardon from Governor Phillip 16 December 1791.  This is listed on the 1801 List # 6 of Absolute Pardons prepared for Governor King.   G.  This 1801 list notes that that John Irving as dead.   
If in England, then TNA ref Reel 10 Vol CO 201/21 Pages 45-57
If in Australia, then the NSW State Records Office reference :  4/4486; reel 880 page 001

Mr John IRVING,  Convict, Surgeon, was buried 13 Sept 1795 at Parramatta, NSW Australia.
NSW BDM 1795 Vol 148 line 509 and its transmitted duplicate in 1795 Vol 2A at line 1175.

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx


Cheers,  JM