CORNWELL from Bottisham

[wdurham]

There is one Samuel, b in Bottisham, in the Cambs FHS Baptisms:

1818 CORNWELL Samuel H. - Bottisham Lode s. of John & Elizabeth, Bottisham

About the same age as the mystery Isaac, so perhaps a cousin?

I have found a William and Mary producing children in Bottisham at about the right time (Robert 1813, Charlotte 1815 and Elizabeth) 1816. There is also a William and Sarah, but a bit late (William 1833, Sarah B 1836). William and Anne, but they were much earlier around 1801, and seemed to favour the job lot baptism. And William and Alice, (Ann 1818, John 1820, Eliza 1822, Josiah 1825).

There just is not an Isaac (apart from the Wilbraham boy who we have counted out for good reasons) baptised in Cambs and listed on the Cambs FHS baptisms. Let alone an Isaac son of William!

I can't find a burial for a likely William, either.

So perhaps non-conformist or Catholic?

[CAROLYNDERRY]

thanks for all your continued support and help

this may be a total stab in the dark but i tried looking up ann osler also cited as a witness on the marriage certificate and found an isaac cornwall ostler on the family search website . he was baptised en masse in 1822--correct timing His father was william ostler and mother mary(no surname). on familysearch the ostler was bracketed-any idea what that means??

am i barking up the wrong tree

[wdurham]

Hi, Carolyn -

The bracketing is just a means of distinguishing surnames, as far as I am aware. Some conventions use CAPS, others use forward slashes. Parts of the IGI use the angle brackets as in Horningsea.

I have been poking around over this as well - it's very like a situation I have in my own family, where we have all the evidence for the existence and life of a William Armstrong, but have never found a baptism. Also, I am still wondering about the Louis/Lewis connection with my Kent/Hampshire Cornhills, so have a definite interest in this problem!

I also looked up Ann Osler - though I didn't find Isaac Cornwall Ostler like you. However, the link with Horningsea might make sense of this rather confusing entry from Cambs Banns:

16 Jun 1839 Groom Isaac CORNWALL condition widr residence otp Bride Rebecca PIPER condition sp residence of Hornsey, Parish Bottisham, CAM

Now we know that the name of Isaac's wife was not Piper but Papworth. You have the marriage cert, and if more proof were needed, Papworth was used as the middle name for one of the sons. But this entry is for Banns to be read in Bottisham, presumably with info given to the vicar verbally, whilst the marriage took place in the bride's parish, so it could be an error. Oddly, the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah does not appear on the IGI, nor is it in the Cambs Marriage Index which I have on CD - the Banns entry from 1839 in Bottisham is there, but not the actual marriage.  Where does the marriage cert actually say it took place? And what's the exact marriage date - do these banns refer to the Cornwell/Papworth marriage?

I did piece together a chronology from the various info in the Cambs Burials, Banns, Marriages and Baptisms, plus census info and the IGI, as follows:

Marriages: (Cambs Marriages - FFHS at family history Online, also on IGI and Cambs Marriage Index)
9 Feb 1836
Groom Isaac CORNWELL, otp
Bride Sarah (x) LOUGHTS (or LOFTS), otp
by banns
Witnesses John (x) WHITE, Susannah LOFTS, Ann ARBER,Parish Bottisham, CAM

Baptism: (Cambs Baptisms - FFHS at family history Online - also on the IGI see below)
27 Aug 1838
William Lofts CORNWELL son of Isaac & Sarah, Lode, Father Occupation lab
Notes PB (private baptism???) Parish Bottisham

Burial: (NBI - FFHS at family history Online)
Sarah CORNWELL Date 14 Sep 1838 Aged 24 Place Bottisham Description Holy Trinity

(Looks like she died of the birth?)

Banns: (Cambs Banns - FFHS at family history Online, and Cambs Marriage Index)
16 Jun 1839
Groom Isaac CORNWALL condition widr residence otp
Bride Rebecca PIPER condition sp residence of Hornsey, Parish Bottisham, CAM


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1851 Census:
Lode Street, Bottisham
Isaac 34, b Bottisham
Rebecca 36, b Westwick
william 12
Lewis 9
Ann 4
Robert 1
All children b Bottisham

IGI: children of Isaac and Sarah

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Re: your Isaac Cornwall Ostler:

There is an entry for an Isaac Osler b 1818 in Horningsea, wife Louisa, and two children, Henry and Lettice in 1851. In 1852 the family emigrated to Australia - perhaps part of the Victoria goldrush?

See:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/PRF/individual_record.asp?recid=310922315&lds=2&region=-1&regionfriendly=&frompage=99

and then I found this on the Victoria Public Record Office Site:

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There are two marriages for Isaac Osler in Chesterton District (which covers Horningsea) one in 1843 possibly  to Martha Read, and one in 1846 possibly to Louisa Bradwell - which ties up with the Pedigree Resource File and the Persian passenger list.

If this is Isaac Cornwall Ostler, then that would rule him out, as Isaac and Rebecca are alive and kicking in Bottisham in 1851 and thereafter, and not taking part in the Victoria Gold Rush!

So no closer to who Isaac was. All I can think is that Isaac was not his baptismal name OR he wasn't baptised OR he was illegitimate and baptised with his mother's surname.  Even then, all the Isaacs in the Bottisham batches on the IGI seem to have fathers....

I also did some stuff on Williams, see the next post...

[wdurham]

...continued from previous post!

On Isaac's marriage cert, he says his father is William, deceased. As I said, I did find some Williams producing children in the right period in Bottisham. But none of them had an Isaac.

Here are the results of my labours:

Wives and Children of William Cornwells in Bottisham contemporary with Isaac's birth year of 1816-1818:

Unknown Female:
CORNWELL William 1812 Bastardy - Father - Poor Law Papers (Entry on the CAMDEX archive database)

26 May 1812
Groom William CORNWALL otp
Bride Mary (x) BENSTEAD otp
by banns
Witnesses George (x) BICHENO, Samuel STUBBING, John BENSTEAD, James (x) HART Notes witness 5 Elizabeth FULLER (x) Parish Bottisham, CAM

Possible children found for the above marriage:

ROBERT CORNWALL - s/o William Cornwall & Mary Benstead
Christening:  12 SEP 1813   Bottisham, Cambridge, England
CHARLOTTE CORNELL d/o William Cornell & Mary
Gender: Female Christening: 12 MAR 1815 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
ELIZABETH CORNELL - d/o William Cornell & Mary
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUN 1816 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
 
Marriage:
3 Dec 1816
Groom William (x) CORNWELL otp
Bride Alice HUNT otp
by banns
Witnesses John RAYMENT, Mary FITCH, Parish Bottisham, CAM

Possible children found for the above marriage:
 

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However, William and Alice were still both alive in 1841, (and still producing children!) whereas Isaac said his father William was dead in 1939. Alice is a widow by 1851.

Another William is here:

Married 21 Oct 1846
Groom William CORNWELL aged full condition widr occupation farmer residence otp
Bride Ruth (x) GOODWIN aged full condition wid residence otp
by banns
Groom father Holmes – occupation farmer
Bride father William CHAMBERLAIN - occupation lab
Witnesses William WALLING, Lucy WHALLING, Parish Bottisham, CAM

In 1841 the above william is 52, previous wife Sarah aged 49, two children, William 8 and Sarah 5

In 1851 he is 62, with two children William 17 and Sarah 14. New wife Ruth is also 62, b Swavesey.

Again, not dead at the time of Isaac's marriage.

The only other William baptising kids in Bottisham was a bit too early: he and his wife Ann baptised a raft of children in 1801 and 1802 - John, Mary A, Philip, William and Sarah. Though these appear on the Cambs Baptisms Index, they aren't in the IGI batches? Strange. But he does seem to have been dead by 1839! Or at least, isn't in the 1841 census.

So i shall now go off and pursue Louis/Lewis, having gone as far as I can with Isaac and William.

Hope you can get something out of all of this....

[CAROLYNDERRY]

phew

what can i say but thankyou very very much for your hard work

where do you get all the details from?

i hadn't even considered the "cormak" name in 1841 so didn't have that info.

on isaac and rebekah marriage cert. it has been left blank but the reistrar has put in a note saying they would expect it to say 'parish of horningsea in the county of cambridge'

marriage took place on 24/06/1839

i did have the info re marriage to sarah lofts/loughts and her death at the same time that william was born but you have given me some further details that i didn't have,so thanks for that


good luck with your louis/lewis

carolyn

[wdurham]

No problem, Carolyn - most enjoyable!

But bear in mind it's all circumstantial, dug up from the various online sources available - you'd need to do some pretty heavy checking to find the proper evidence.

With the census info, I have found to my cost that Cornhill/Cornwell is usually very badly mistranscribed, so mostly I search, where the first name is not too common, just on first names, spouse first names, parents first names etc plus an approx date of birth and a birthplace or birth county. You get a lot of entries, but usually the one you want is in there- as with Carmak!

It does look as if those Banns from 14 Jun 1839 are the right ones, even though they have the girl's surname wrong. The marriage was just a few days later, and was in Horningsea - misspelled by the Bottisham vicar as Hornsey. I did check - there isn't a Hornsey in Cambs!

Sadly, even after all that, we still don't know who Isaac was....other than the son of a William, perhaps. As David has pointed out, what's on the certificate is only what the registrar was told, and need not be the truth!

Good hunting.  8-)

[CAROLYNDERRY]

Hi mig
i have been researching other cornwells in bottisham to try and establish a link with my cornwells. i have a phillip who married an ann but i have ann ayres. i do have an ann arber but she married a william. i may be wrong but just need to check it out. how positive are you re your info?

look forward to hearing from you soon
carolyn

[mig]

Hi Carolyn
Whoops! I got my Ayres mixed up with my Arbers. 
 
Yes, Philip Cornwell married Ann Ayres and it was Philip's mum Ann who appears to be an Arber and married a William Cornwell. I believe it is this William that wdurham mentions who has a handful of his children baptised at the same time - my Philip amongst them.

I have known about the Arber connection for quite a long time now - before sites like Ancestry and local record offices came on line.  A kind person living in the Cambridge area visited the local record office in Cambridge for me. Since then other on-line sources have 'confirmed' the  Arber name.

Sometimes I think I should always make a note of where information comes from. Do others?

Anyway sorry about the confusion with the Annes.

Also, just to confirm about poor transcribing: I had the Philip Cornwell entry in the 1841 Census photocopied for me by the above kind person at the Cambridge Record Office before easy on-line sources were available. A few years later when I tried to find this entry on-line on the Ancestry site there was nothing, yet I knew the entry existed. After many thwarted attempts and frustration reaching fever pitch, I also hit on the idea of entering the more uncommon christian name rather than a surname and lo and behold up came an entry for 'Cormak' - it was my Philip and family. I have used this strategy many times now - just as wdurham describes in his reply. Oh the satisfaction when you know you have discovered some information that has eluded you for a long time.

Cheers

Mig

[CAROLYNDERRY]

no probs. this is really sending me around in circles too.

i have been trying to source who may have been my isaac father so have tried to reserch all cornwells in the bottisham area. william and anne arber also had a son william who could be a contender for this but i'm not sure who he married.
i have also narrowed it down to a possible edmund who married elizabeth ?maiden name who had a william baptised on 15/07/1798-since their children were baptised at different times i'm assuming this was more or less when he was born
do you have any further info re above cornwells?
i am really guessing at a lot of this,trying to prove it is difficult
carolyn