CORNWELL from Bottisham

[Redroger]

Identical relationship apparently to Jack Cornwell as my own. My maternal grandfather Samuel Ayres (bLode 1868 d Cambridge 1935) was the son of James Ayres and Emily Cornwell (1850-1941). For some obscure reason I am unable to open myLegacy program at present, so the information I have to memory is limited, in that I cannot check Emily's parents, but I am aware that the Ayres and Cornwell families intermarried for many generations. One thing that does intrigue me about Jack, which I have not yet resolved is where does the Travers come from? Perhaps you can help.

[jowasere]

Hi redroger, thanks for reply. I recently found some cornwell relatives via facebook and we have exchanged family trees to confirm. One of them was named after John Travers so I will ask him if he knows about the name, they also have Ayes(sorry if spelt wrong) in their relatives connections. If you are interested in connecting with me on facebook, drop me a note. If I get any answers about Travers origin I will come back to you on here.

[jowasere]

hi redroger. I think I found your granddad on my tree on ancestry. if its correct your nxt relatives going back from what you gave me before are Samuel Cornwell1829 and Elizabeth Harvey, then further back Robert cornwell and Hannah Ayres

[Mr.Blueyezz]

Hi jowasere

Your Samuel Cornwell b.1829 was my Great Great Grandfather,one of his sons was Absalom (Benny) Cornwell uncle to John Travers Cornwell.

[Roger Stubbings]

When John Travers Cornwell VC's mother Lily King died in 1919, for some obscure reason that I haven't been able to get to the bottom of, the death records gave her name as Alice. Apparently, she did use this name....(!). Things were compounded by her being interred in John and Eli's grave as Alice, and with Alice Carpenter's birth year! The Alice Elizabeth Cornwell death in Hackney 1896 is for a 1 year old. She MIGHT have been a daughter of Eli and Lily, as their 1911 Census record states they had lost a child. I have scoured for a marriage certificate, I have searched everywhere for death records for Alice Carpenter.

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Roger,

As far as I am aware, no CORNWELL researcher has ever resolved this dilemma. No registration of any marriage between Eli CORNWELL & Lily KING can be found nor a record of the death of his first wife Alice CARPENTER.

Alice CARPENTER:

Daughter of Henry CARPENTER a Brewer's Cooper living at 2 Astley Street, Maidstone, in 1871. By 1881, working as a General Domestic Servant for Head Police Constable Robert ROMANIS & family living at 20 Dane Hill Road, Margate.

Married three years later & settled with Eli raising their young family at 101 Stainsby Road, Limehouse, in 1891 but left them sometime during the next three years. Old family rumour has it that she left Eli & the children and went off with another woman.

NOTE: Alice CORNWELL age 32 death registered in Maldon, Essex, Q4 1897 may be connected

Lily KING:

Engaged as housekeeper sometime after Alice departed, but eventually moved in with Eli as his common-law wife. No record of marriage found.

Received her son's VC from King George V at Buckingham Palace on 16 Nov 1916.

After the death of Eli, the family were reduced to quite 'distressing straits' and were 'living in penury' despite a small pension provided for Lily by the Navy League. Lily was living 'in modest rooms over a general store in Commercial Road East' in Aug 1919. This state of affairs, in comparison to the large sums of money collected for memorials to Jack and for disabled ex-servicemen's homes etc, provoked adverse comment in the national press. The Daily Sketch was particularly critical of the Star and Garter Home at Richmond, where 'a huge sum of money raised to do honour to the name of Jack Cornwell still lies idle'. According to press reports, Lily 'collapsed and died under the strain of the precarious conditions in which she was left to live'. She was buried, along with her common-law husband & son 'Jack', in Manor Park Cemetery under the alias of 'Alice'.  Letters of Administration to her effects valued at £42.0.8d granted to son Ernest on 10 Nov 1919.

[Redroger]

Peter, there is something else I am minded to do, but it most likely has to be after lockdown is ended. We have got to very similar positions in our research.
Redroger (to avoid possible confusion)

[mrs_orrell]

Hoping to resurrect discussion on this thread

If you scroll back on this thread you will see I am a descendant of Holmes Cornwell, via James Cornwell and Hannah Greygoose. Since my initial posts on here I have done a lot more research, collaborated with other descendants and built my tree considerably. I've DNA tested and also tested my paternal great uncle who is the oldest living relative I have on this line. Happily, our results verified much of my paper tree and explained a few question marks I had over some ancestors.

I'm now tracing backwards from Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day. I am happy that William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes are the parents of Holmes Cornwell. I see that it is generally agreed that William Cornwell and Sarah Blacklock are the parents of William. Why? A "most likely" scenario? Is there more evidence than the very patchy Fulbourn registers? I can find no will for William or Sarah so has anyone else uncovered one? I'm transcribing the documents relating to the legal spat they had with Sarah's family with the help of Redroger, but so far it doesn't seem to shed any light.

I also question the William Cornwell / Ann Arber marriage. This is often said to be the son of William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes, but I cannot see why this conclusion has been drawn?! What am I missing? Why has the William Cornwell / Sarah Wallis marriage in 1795 at St Andrew the Less been discounted? I can see 4 children attributed to a William and Sarah Cornwell baptised at St Mary the Less Cambridge, but the first baptism is 10 years after the marriage at St Andrew the Less, which seems an awfully long time for it to be the same couple... However, there isn't any other marriage that is leaping out as more likely! The 1840 burial for William Cornwell aged 73 at St Mary the Less says his abode is Potton, but I can find nothing in Potton relating to him or any of the children baptised at St Mary the Less. (Tbf, the Beds FHS CDs aren't a patch on the Cambs ones and my Potton one doesn't play very nicely in my laptop!)

So I've come on here to see if anyone who has trodden this ground before can explain or is willing to share their research, or if they have gone down the DNA route, pool results! I know there are loose ends in my Cornwell research, they were such an extensive family with a complicating way of intermarrying through the generations.

For anyone interested, I have gone back a number of generations on Elizabeth Day's paternal line, although I am stuck on Mary Lemon's line (I have put a note on Ancestry about all the Swaffham Prior baptisms being listed on there as occurring in Sutton which has given rise to the Mary Northrop scenario). I have also gone back a number of generations on Elizabeth Holmes' line and it is all on a private tree on Ancestry I am happy to invite any Cornwell descendants to view!

Any thoughts more than welcome!
Karen

[Peter Cornwell]

Karen,

You raise several issues here so let me first comment on the parentage of William CORNWELL who married Sarah BLACKLOCK.

Two William CORNWELLs both baptised at Fulbourn St Vigor’s within a year of each other & both later married to women named Elizabeth within two years of each other does offer plenty of scope for confusion. And to further confound the issue both also had connections with Cambridge St Andrew’s. At this distance in time, and with sketchy documentary evidence, making a distinction between them is problematic. But one possible material factor may be the relative prosperity of the  families concerned.

(1) William CORNWELL (born c.1731) was the eldest son of William CORNWELL, a prosperous yeoman farmer of Fulbourn, who had inherited two properties in Fulbourn & his wife Sarah BLACKLOCK who had also inherited £200 from her late brother. I believe it was this William who married Elizabeth HOLMES at St Vigor’s, Fulbourn, on 1 April 1754.
 
Witness at his sister Mary's wedding in Fulbourn 1756. As the eldest son he would, presumably, have also given her away, their father then being dead. Also witnessed his brother-in-law's, John HOLMES, wedding to Tabitha CRACKNELL at Wilbraham 1759. Shown as 'Wm CORNALL' he is listed as a 'Tenant of the Mannour of Fulbourne Zouches' on 26 Apr 1759. His father & uncle both being manorial tenants before him. Thus, also the 'Wm CORNWELL' assessed for Land Tax (4/- in the £) in 1762/3 on a cottage in Fulbourn rateable value eight shillings - the same assessment showing his children's land rated at an extra twelve shillings. Clearly a fairly prosperous family.

May also have held property in Cambridge as all his children were baptised at the 'Abbey Church' of St Andrew's the Less between 1755-1775. However, the family was subject of a removal order from St Andrew's the Less to St Benedict's parish dated 14 Apr 1770. Thus, all the girls were wed in that parish rather than the one preferred by the family hitherto. This suggests that they were resident in the town centre around Corpus Christi but I have yet to establish William's (business?) connection to Cambridge.

BELIEVED TO BE the 'William CORNWELL labourer from Barnwell' buried at Fulbourn in 1795? To date, I have not located any will for either William nor Elizabeth.

The alternative (2) William CORNWELL (born c.1730) was the youngest son of John CORNWELL the Fulbourn pinder. I believe it was this William who married Elizabeth TYRELL at Great St Andrew’s, Cambridge, on 14 December 1756.

As 'William CORNWELL of Fulbourn' he was indentured as an apprentice glover to Charles HANCOCK of Cambridge in 1759 - a profession he subsequently pursued in Cambridge. William & Elizabeth were both listed as members of the St Andrew's Street Baptist Church in Cambridge between 1760 - 1781. On 30 May 1765 he was voted four shillings a year by the church for the upkeep of doors & window shutters etc. His wife was later excommunicated from the church on 15 May 1768 but he evidently remained a member as he was receiving alms from the church between 1777 - 1781.

Your most interesting post raises more questions than I have time to address this morning but I will get to them very shortly.