Robertson major brick wall

[prophetess]

I have a major brick wall I have Andrew Robertson a Farmer died bef May 1875, married to Jane?
Children were
Janie( jeanie) Barclay Robertson abt 1846
Margaret Robertson abt 1847
David Robertson abt 1851
and Eliza Robertson, abt 1853
Eliza married and died in Ulveston, and the family were there for some time, only birth info I have is aprox birth and Scotland, except one of the census's Janie states born in Perth,
Eliza I have no idea where she was born as I have not found her on any census , she was my 2x great grandmother .
would like to find more info on my Robertson's
Margaret married William Morrison a brewer and 1901 they are in Devon,
3x Grt Grandmother I think also died in Derby
Hope you can help
Sybil

[AMBLY]

Hi Sybil

In order to establish a starting point......I had a lot of my immediate questions answered by looking at a previous post:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,233953.0.html

Andrew ROBERTSON  place of birth and approx year  of birth. - UNKNOWN.
He was a Farmer.
Was deceased before his daughter Eliza married in Lancashire England May 1874.
Place of Death - Unknown

His widow
Jane (UNKNOWN MAIDEN NAME)
was born abt 1822 Scotland, (Perthshire  according to  1 census)
Census 1881: Lancashire with her married daughter Margaret & her family.
Census 1891: Lancashire with her unmarried daughter JD (Janie)
Census 1901: Lancashire with her Dau Janie 45 son David age 50, and a Grandson Joseph  18

Their children:

Daughter: Janie Barclay Robertson abt 1846 - Scotland
Born in Perthsire according to 1 Census.
She  never appeared to have married.
Census 1881 - In Lancashire, enumerated on her own, as Head (dau).
Census 1891 - In Lancashire with her mother
Census 1901 - with her mother, and brother David.

Daughter: Margaret Robertson abt 1847 - Scotland
She married WIlliam BREWER.
Census 1881 Lancashire, with her husband - her mother is there too.
Census 1891 and 1901 Cheshire 7 Devon - Margaret's age was consistent, and  her birthplace was always down as "Scotland".

Son: David Robertson abt 1851 - Scotland
Census 1881 - ??
Census 1891 - ??
Census 1901- with his mother in Lancashire. The Grandson (of Jane) named Joseph ROBERTSON,  born in Manchester abt 1883, may belong to David. David is listed as married - but no wife. His occupation is listed as a Surgeon.

Dau: Eliza Robertson, abt 1853 - unknown place of birth - may be Scotland
married May 1874 Lancs to Daniel Allan and died a year later.
Have never  found Eliza on a Census. Her address on marriage, and death  was 4 Tay Street, Hindpool, Barrow, Lancashire - Daniel was from Findhorn.
Her occupation on marriage was "Weaver". You have been told  she was interred in a common grave (known as paupers grave) and there is no headstone.

CENSUS:
1881 : 79 Meadow Street, Moss Side, Hulme, Lancashire
Ref: RG11 /  Piece 3938 /  Folio: 95 /  Pg 11
MORISSON (sic) William, Head, 35, b Ireland, Brewer's Clark
Do Margaret, Wife, 34, b Scotland (i.e. b ca 1847)
Do Joseph, Son, 3, b Moss Side
Do Jane B, Daughter, 6m, b Moss Side
ROBERTSON Jane, Mother-in-law, Widow, 59, b Scotland, formerly Farmer's Wife

Daughter Janie
1881:1 Dudley St, Stretford, Lancashire
Ref: RG11 /  Piece 3887 /  Folio /  69 /  Pg 32
Head (Dau): Jeanie ROBERTSON, Unmarried, 35, born Scotland, (Formerly Farmer's Daughter)
She is the only person in the household. Possibly her mother Jane usually lived here, but on Census night at least,  was away tending to her other daughter Margaret who had a new baby.

1891: 5 Dudley St, Stretford, Lancashire.
Ref: RG12 /  Piece: 3159 /  Folio 25 / Pg 41 (Barton upon Orwell District)
Head: Jane ROBERTSON 69, widow,  living on her own means , b Perthshire, Scotland
Dau:  J D ROBERTSON age 45, born Perthshire, Scotland

1901: 79 Bishop Street, Moss Side, Hulme, Lancashire
Ref: RG13 /  Piece 3709 /  Folio 30 /  Pg 51 (Chorlton District)
Head: Jane Robertson 79 Wid,  Living on her own Means, b Scotland
Dau:  Janie ROBERTSON 55 single, b Scotland;
Son:  David ROBERTSON 50 married, Surgeon (own account) born Scotland;
Grandson Joseph ROBERTSON 18, single b Manchester, Lancashire
(Joseph may be David's son)

Did you realise Davd was a Surgeon?
In the 1901 - his occupation has not been crossed out (as had been suggested on another topic).  Rather the enumerator (or his supervisor)  has made a marking thru it, and thru other entries  - done when they are checking and counting his entries on the page. It clearly says "Surgeon" to me.

So this all tells us - the family were in England by 1881, and possibly (excepting Andrew) by May 1874 when Eliza wed.  Who witnessed her marriage  (ie: can we place her mother or siblings in Lancashire in 1874?)

Have you confirmed Janie's middle name was "Barclay" ? I know this was the middle name of Margaret's daughter - but Janie is listed as J.D. in that one Census.....?

Cheers
AMBLY

[liverpool annie]

Hi Sybil ...... good to see you !

This is just a little aside .... but if your David was a doctor you may be able to get some information here .... they ask for a donation ....  they were very helpful to me and a few other people on here !!

Tina Craig ( I just found out Tina retired but I'm sure her successor will be able to help you ! )

Deputy Head of Library and Information Services
Royal College of Surgeons of England
35-43, Lincoln's Inn Fields
London WC2A 3PE
Tel: 0207 869 6520
Fax: 0207 405 4438

http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/contact/index.html#library

Annie 

[prophetess]

Whaow ambly.............. Ok let me refresh my memory,
Eliza and Daniels Marriage Witness's were Henry Patterson and Jane Robertson, William Henry Fotheringill Minister, so her mother I assume is the witness, as the census refers to her as Jeanie/janie.
My error on Janies middle name it was Margarets Daughter who was Jane Barclay ( who I found out went to New York at the age of 45 Unmarried and her brother was the captian of the ship, Last Night so advancement there)
I have no idea what the D stands for in Janies name.

The really exciting thing her is that I had no idea David was a Surgeon, so will follow that up with Annies link, Thanks for that Annie

Looking like a chip out the robertson line here

Thanks Sybil

[AMBLY]

Hi Sybil and Annie 

This is the part of the image for David 1901  - see what you think
Son, M(arried), age 50, Surgeon

Gosh, I keep looking at it and getting less & less sure than I was yesterday.......... does it say Surgeon?  Pretty sure it's an S at the start - but  is that a g or a y?? and is that an e after it?

If he is a Surgeon.....Hopefully he can be found via Annie's link - but wonder if he could also have done his  training in Scotland....?  Very odd we can't find him pre 1901! He must be someplace surely...unless by 1881 he had already done his training and had gone 'abroad'.. then again, if Joseph b 1883 Manchester  is his son....



Cheers
AMBLY

[liverpool annie]

Hi Girls !

Looks like surgeon to me Ambly !

Possibly he could have gone to into the Army or something similar  - as he was a doctor !! 

Annie 

[prophetess]

I think You are right Ambly I looked at it on Ancestry and it sure looks like surgeom to me
Sybil

[AMBLY]

Hi Sybil!

I'm nearly bald looking at this one, anf they're not even mine   
I just saw you come on, so I'm going to post what I've been churning over -  now,  forgive me, if I get the wrong end of any sticks and put me right....but here goes!

This is a whole bucketful of mysteries!

Can't find any of them pre 1881 in Scotland, England
Can't find Margaret's marriage to William MOR(R)IS(S)ON
(she was in her 30's with 2 little ones 1881 - could have been married before, and married Irish born William under  different name)
Can't find David before 1901 in England, Scotland . He was apparently married by 1901, He would surely have already been a Doctor by 1881.

Can find a marriage of a David ROBERTSON to an Esther JAMES. (on FREEBMD and Lancs BMD in Chorlton RD. Can't find them on a Census!

The Grandson in 1901....Joseph ROBERTSON born abt 1883 Manchester.....
Searching "Lancashire" births only 3 came up between 1880 & 1885 incl, but  one is registered Sep 1881 - so most likely he'd be one of these two:
Joseph Thomas ROBERTSON - Jun Qtr 1880 Warrington - he is with his parents in Warrington 1891 & 1901.(His father is a 50 yr old named Andrew! born Berwick on Tweed)
or:  Joseph Drummond ROBERTSON - Jun Qtr 1883 Chorlton - him?

Can find a Joseph ROBERTSON, in Moss Side in 1891 (covered by the Chorlton RD)

Ref: RG12; Piece: 3199; Folio 135; Page 19
Head: John ROBERTSON 38, Jeweller, b Scotland
Wife: Martha F ROBERTSON 35, b Ireland
Dau: Jane A ROBERTSON 11, b Manchester
Dau: Evelyn  ROBERTSON 9, b Liverpool
Son: Joseph ROBERTSON 8, b Manchester
Servant: Alice HEYES 20, General Servant, b Wales

 In 1901, Son Joseph is not with them (ie: is he the one visiting Granny in Moss side?)
1901: 87 Fitzwarren Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire
Ref:  Class: RG13; Piece: 3718; Folio: 84; Page: 4.
Head: John ROBERTSON 48, Commercial Traveller, b Scotland
Wife: Martha F ROBERTSON 45, b Ireland
Dau: Evelyne ROBERTSON 19, unm, Music Teacher (own account - At home), b Liverpool Lancs

John could be another child of Jane, sibling to Janie D,, Margaret, David.....
Cannot find marriage of John to Martha F. (Martha F ROBERTSON died age 56  in 1912 Chorlton )
Cannot find any of their family before 1881

To me "feels" like Ireland looming...for example a scenario:
1) They were Non-Conformist (you can't find Parish records in Scotland) [but see next msg below]
2) They ended up in ?Ireland? and came over to between 1871 and 1875 England from there!
3) Margaret married her Irish husband not in England (in Ireland? In Scotland?)
4) David married in England, but went to Ireland and came back to visit his elderly Mum in 1901. He may even have done his Medical training in Ireland  (Dublin??)
5) Possible other son/sibling John, married his Irish wife in Ireland.

next part coming up...

cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

This really bother me though.......

The ROBERTSON'S we are following (or trying to  )  on one hand  hand....

* Mother Jane is "Living on her own means" as a widow of a farmer
* Son David is a Surgeon and almost assuredly had  completed his  medical training by 1881.
* Daughter Janie D has never an occupation beyond "farmers daughter"  (never any Notation on the Census to indicate any disability??)
* Daughter Margaret, married by 1881, has servants in the later Census.

This all points to a family, who were doing all right economicly...middle class, upper middle class? yet......on the other hand

* Eliza, stated to be was a Weaver when she married - she was working for her living - working/labouring  class type of job?
* She was buried in a common grave.
* Her mother or a sister, or a relative was probably the female witness to the marriage
* Her mother informed of her death at Tay Street
* In 1881, a total of 33 people are enumerated at 4 Tay Street,

Since  her mother registered her death, and likely stood as witness at her wedding, Eliza was seemingly not on the outer with her well-ish off family thereby being  forced into reduced circumstance even in death -  the family we believe she came from, is relatively well off - yet Eliza is buried as a Pauper, or at least in a Pauper's grave? This does not seem to fit.......

My question is:
Jane ROBERTSON, informant on Eliza's death Cert - did it give an address for the informant?
Is there any other proof that the Jane ROBERTSON in Moss Side  is Eliza's mother?
Is there any proof that Moss Side Jane was a widow of Andrew ROBERTSON.
Is there any other proof that Eliza's mother was Scotswoman?

because I just found something really interesting  ......about to type it up now.....