Author Topic: Bankier Clelland Leishman  (Read 12786 times)

Offline judb

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #9 on: Friday 24 October 08 08:47 BST (UK) »
At this point I have very little about David Clel(l)and.  The info I have is from another person so I have not yet verified it  personally.  The info I have says my David Clel(l)and was born 30 Jul 1829 "in Glasgow" and married to Jean Bankier 7 July 1854 also 'in Glasgow".  I haven't been to Scotland so have no idea whether Lanark is considered part of Glasgow or not.  I know that Jean Bankier was living in Kilsyth.  As they emigrated in 1855 there are no census entries for them together.

The info also says "Your David Clelland and Jane Bankier were brother and sister to my James Clelland and Mary Bankier – the brothers married sisters." None of this is helped by the Bankiers having a Janet and a Jean, both names sometimes being changed to Jane.

I am only at the beginning of tracking the Clelland/Bankier family as I've been doing English ancestors - they have been a bit easier to find than Scottish ones!! 

Your questions have prompted me to look again at some emails from the person who gave me the information as I think she has more to tell.  I'll put the info up on Rootschat if I find anything else.  :)
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline apanderson

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #10 on: Friday 24 October 08 10:22 BST (UK) »
Just poking my nose in again  ;D

The following are the male CLEL(L)ANDS (there are further females but I won't include them as obviously they changed their surnames) in Kilsyth Churchyard:

CLELAND, William (wife Agnes Stevenson)
CLELAND, David (wife Hellen Buchanan)
CLELAND, William (wife Margaret McLean)
CLELAND, Alexander (wife Isabella Rankin)
CLELAND, Alexander (wife Agnes Tunnoch)

CLELLAND, Alexander (wife Margaret Forrest)
CLELLAND, Duncan (wife Mary Thom)

And in Kilsyth Cemetery:

CLELAND, George (wife Isabella Lindsay)
CLELAND, John (wife Ann Cuthill)
CLELAND, John (wife Janet Young)

There may well be a lot more Clel(l)ands in the Cemetery, but these are the only ones I have in my records.

Anne

Offline McCann

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #11 on: Friday 24 October 08 14:36 BST (UK) »
Good luck Judith.  Let us know how you do.

Thank you Anne.  You poke your nos in anytime you want.
I'll take a look at the names and see if I can come up with anything.  I appreciate your help (as always).

McCann

Offline judb

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 25 October 08 00:07 BST (UK) »
Hi Anne and McCann - so nice to find two like-minded Rootschatters!

I found a website

http://www.paperclip.org.uk/kilsythweb/history/archivesources/pre_1855_inscriptions.htm

with transcriptions of gravestones from Kilsyth Old Churchyard which gives the following Clelands:

81 FS 4)2; 1827; W. FREW;  E. BENNY; J FREW; I CLELAND
219 (FS) David CLELAND 18 Oct 1838 age 28, by wife Hellen BUCHANAN, gs David C 19 Dec 1933 ae 9
239 (FS) 1837 J. FREW & I. CLELAND ...HENDRIE ... (FREW) 10 (July) 1760 age 70
279, 284 do not seem to be in the list
292     1855  William CLELAND & Margaret MCLEAN
309     1862  Alex CLELAND  17 March 1859, 75 yr, wife Margaret  FORBES 22 March 1862, 76 yr,  son Duncan at Cadder  2 June 1875  63 yr,  (wife Mary THOM,  son Alex  11 February 1842  4 1/2)
337     1835  Alex FREW & Mary MARSHALL;  Farquhar TUNNOCH,  wife Helen FREW, Alex CLELAND   28 September  1919,  wife Agnes TUNNOCH  14 January 1922
360     David CLELAND farmer Arnrae  died Bridge of Alan  27 April 1921, 73 yr;  bos Alex at Genoa  13 May 1879, 20 yr; William at Arnbrae 17 October 1881, 24 yr;  Siss  Jeanie CLELAND at Kirkintilloch  24 August 1926 72 yr,  Agnes CLELAND there 27 April 1927, 82 yr
365     1829   John CLELAND & Janet MORISON, lying separately on this stone, John CLELAND 30 August 1905, 24 yr from Leith workers municipal committee  (KGB has - 1829  John CLELAND , Craigends, transferred 1846 to his son Robert, weaver Old Town
394 (fs NEXT 393) 1733 AF AR; Alex FERGUS, Eh CLELAND (KGB has 1737 Alex FERGUS in Inchlee

The website says that the transcriptions were believed to have been surveyed in 1969, and the source of the transcriptions is uncertain.

Some of these are the ones you have, Anne and I guess some of them would have deteriorated more over the last 40 years.

Hope to phone my contact during the next week.

Cheers, Judith

DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline apanderson

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 25 October 08 15:52 BST (UK) »
Hi Judith,

I believe these transcriptions were taken from Mitchell's 'West Stirlingshire Monumental Inscriptions, pre-1855', the Churchyard was surveyed by them in May 1969.

I have a copy of this book and am quite happy to do look-ups if anyone wants them. I will say however, they are not 100% accurate/reliable and the transcriptions are only what they 'thought' the inscriptions were. I'm not decrying their work as these books are an invaluable research source.

The inscriptions are all abbreviated and can quite often appear to mean a different thing as to what the stones actually have inscribed on them. I have photos and my own transcriptions of most of the stones listed but I ALWAYS say that the inscriptions are my 'interpretation'.

You'll see from the above list (FS). This means that the stone is a Flat Stone and about 50% of these are now either so badly eroded (completely covered or have sunk beneath ground level) that any inscriptions are lost. The ones which are still 'just' legible, are only readable depending on the angle of the sun - and that's if it's shining!!

The attached photo shows part of the Churchyard and just beyond it is the Cemetery.

Anne


Offline McCann

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 25 October 08 18:57 BST (UK) »
Judith and Anne:
That is all so interesting.  Thank you for the information.
The names all seem so close, I wish I could find a connection.
My ggg gmother, Elizabeth Cleland (nee Paterson) had a sister Elizabeth Frew.  So the names are there, but this lot seems to be from and in Lanark.  I'll keep up the search.
Regards.
McCann

Offline judb

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 25 October 08 23:29 BST (UK) »
Hi Anne and McCann

Oh Anne, what a beautiful place surrounded by the wooded hills. thank you for posting the photo.  I went back a step or two in the web address and it seems to be a Kilsyth history site.

My goodness, am I confused with all these Bankiers and Clelands, to say nothing of a Leishman or two and the Jane/Jean/Janet bit!  I note that the three surnames are on the WW1 and WW2 memorials. Added to that is the fact that almost all of the records here in Australia use the "Clelland" spelling.

I think some concentrated sorting and digging on my part is called for!

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline apanderson

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 26 October 08 00:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Judith,

I'm glad you liked the photo!

Regarding the Cleland/Clelland variations - I wouldn't discount either of them as more than likely they are one and the same. When you consider that it wasn't that long ago, it was really only the most educated who were able to read and write so they recorded surnames they way they sounded - single 'L' or double 'LL', doesn't make a difference in the pronunciation.

You may be interested in the following sites:

The Scottish War Memorials Forum: (Kilsyth Civic Memorial)  http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=1067&mforum=warmemscot

The Scottish War Grave Forum: (Kilsyth Cemetery)  http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=511&highlight=kilsyth&mforum=scottishwargraves

The Scottish War Graves Forum: (Kilsyth Churchyard)  http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=215&highlight=kilsyth&mforum=scottishwargraves

All the photographs can be downloaded free or if higher resolution copies are required, the people responsible for uploading them are quite happy to supply high resolution copies. All you need to do is register on each of the sites (again free) and ask.

I haven't checked through the war graves to see if any of your names are there - that can be a wee job for you when you get a chance. The photos are not only of CWGC burials (men/women buried in Kilsyth), but of family gravestones as well (men/women buried elsewhere but listed on family stones).

You'll probably notice quite a few of the photos are mine, so if you find anything of interest, don't hesitate to get in touch.

Anne


Offline judb

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Re: Bankier Clelland Leishman
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 05:05 GMT (UK) »
Still haven't made contact with my source, however on going back to his death cert I find that my David Cleland's father is Alex and his mother Margaret Forbes, so their gravestone must be this one:

309     1862  Alex CLELAND  17 March 1859, 75 yr, wife Margaret  FORBES 22 March 1862, 76 yr,  son Duncan at Cadder  2 June 1875  63 yr,  (wife Mary THOM,  son Alex  11 February 1842  4 1/2)

from my previous post.

Anne, can you tell me - would the 1862 mentioned after the index number (309) be the date of the stone (as it fits with the death of Margaret Forbes)?  Do you have this one on your records?

There seems to be this connection with Cadder and Lanarkshire.  Is/was Cadder in Lanrkshire in the 1800s?
J
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk