The Mystery associated with Lancelot (Capability) Brown

[jeenie]

Talking to others is a good way to clarify one’s thoughts eg, but not exhaustively :

-  The Will of James Rust disinherited daughter Mary in which she was not mentioned

-  Capability Brown’s daughter Bridget married Henry Holland

-  Henry Holland, Bridget’s son, never married

-  Capability Brown’s daughter Peggy married James Rust

-  Mary Rust, Peggy’s daughter, never married

-  Henry in his Will provided an Annuity for Mary, which he had been paying           “these many years past”

-  Great grandpa Robert was supposedly born c1821

-  James Rust’s Will was made 1822

Also

-  George Hall, presumed the illegitimate son of Lancelot Brown Jnr changed his name to Brown on reaching his majority

-  To my knowledge, (well educated but very impecunious) great grandpa Robert never spoke of his parents etc, except he was descended from Capability Brown


I have difficulty finding my way and mind around the National Repositories, and so far still can not find :

-  Death Duty Register Entry for George Brown died 1819

-  Death Duty Register Entry for Lancelot died 1802 – having died between 1796 and 1805, could this be proof that George was his son ?

In 1796, tax was not payable on bequests to offspring, spouse, parents and grandparents. In 1805, the exemption was restricted to spouse and parents.

-  Anything for Thomas Charles Brown – I would really like his Will, or particularly Estate Distribution, but do not even have his date of death, except he was still alive in 1861 (census)

-  I can’t imagine where any record may exist or be found of any possible union of Henry and Mary, if such ever occurred

[Siamese Girl]

I'm not entirely sure if the death duty register would help anyway - if George was Lancelot II's illegitimate son he wouldn't have had any legal rights concerning his father's estate, so if his name  was mentioned in it I don't think the relationship would have been recorded.

I think it's going to be nearly impossible to prove the link

Carole

[Valda]

To clarify (I hope) all the points/questions raised in jeenie’s and Carole’s last posts

1. The online Death Duty index on TNA website only covers the period 1796-1811 so George Brown if he left a will or administration 1819 or afterwards (did he?) will not be included – no will or administration = no Death Duty record

2. From TNA guide 'How to interpret Death Duty Registers'

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=245

'What do the Headings and Abbreviations Mean?

6. Abbreviations Used in Column 6 of the 2nd Headings: Consanguinity
Str or Stra or Strag stranger in blood
Stra BL stranger, brother-in-law  
Stra DL stranger, daughter-in-law  
Stra NC stranger, natural child (i.e. illegitimate)  
Stra ND stranger, natural daughter (i.e. illegitimate)  
Stra NS stranger, natural son (i.e. illegitimate)  
Stra NC (of a daughter) stranger, illegitimate child of a daughter  
Stra NC (of a son) stranger, illegitimate child of a son  
Stra (sent) stranger, servant of deceased  
Stra SL stranger, sister-in-law or stranger, son-in-law  
Stra or 'son' stranger, natural son (i.e. illegitimate)  
Stra or 'daughter' stranger, natural daughter (i.e. illegitimate)'

Illegal children had no legal rights to their father's estates unless of course they were beneficiaries of their wills. I have several examples of Death Duty records where the illegitimate relationship of the beneficiary was recorded (but it doesn't necessarily mean all such relationships would be admitted by beneficiaries if they were not already publically acknowledged and stated in the will).

3. The church proved wills up to 1858. The National Archives holds only the Prerogative Court of Canterbury church wills and administrations (though only the wills are indexed online so a vast number of administrations are not). All other church court wills are mostly held in county record offices since they were proved in local/lower church courts. The PCC was the highest church court and covered the whole country - England and Wales as well as some people outside of the country at their time of death e.g. those on board ships. Hence the PCC wills and administrations were deposited with the only national repository TNA.

TNA research guides

Wills Before 1858: Where to Start

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=220

Wills and Probate Records

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=168

Wills and Death Duty Records After 1858

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=219


The online Death Duty Index on TNA website 1796-1811 only includes

'This collection focuses on the death duty payable on wills and letters of administration proved in the "country courts".'

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/about.asp

and therefore excludes any PCC wills or administrations. Lancelot Brown's will proved 1802 was a PCC will (as all are in the TNA online index) so will not show in TNA Death Duty index online. That does not mean there is no Death record for this will.

4. There is a TNA index (not online) for Death Duty Registers in series IR27 (on microfilm). The registers themselves are in IR26. The registers have been microfilmed up to 1858. The real registers are large black (dusty books) and because of space issues at TNA if you need to see the actual registers themselves (which would be the case for post 1858 registers) you have to give TNA 3 days notice before your visit. The registers are stored at TNA repository at Hayes and have to be sent for to allow you to view them at TNA at Kew.

Thomas Charles Brown was still alive on the 1861 census, aged 69, born Conington Cambridgeshire, married, but staying with his brother in Kesale Suffolk. Thomas was the Curate of St Peter's Pimlico (civil registration district St George Hanover Square). Since he cannot be found on the 1871 census then the most likely reason is that he died between the two censuses. There are only two possible death registrations for Thomas Charles Browns in this time period. The first is only a possible because it is pre the date the age was placed on the index – so the age of this Thomas Charles Brown is unknown and could for instance be a child.

Deaths Mar 1865  
BROWN Thomas Charles    Greenwich 1d 543

Deaths Sep 1868  
BROWN Thomas Charles 76 Chelsea 1a 183

The death registration in Chelsea is by far the more likely of the two. It is the correct age for the Thomas Charles Brown you are interested in and the death was registered in an adjacent civil registration district to St George Hanover Square. Greenwich is south of the river Thames.

http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/StGeorgeHanoverSquare/PimlicoHistory.html

5. From 1858 wills were proved by the state. Large libraries (and at least SAG in Australia) have microfiches of this will index going up to about 1945.TNA also holds the index on microfiche.  Copies of wills and administrations proved from 1858 onwards can be ordered from the Probate Service from whom you can request a search but of course it makes it more expensive.

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/civil/probate/index.htm

I hope this answers all the points raised


Regards


Valda

[Siamese Girl]

The Death Duty register only repeats what is in the will or admins - so if a relative isn't named in a will or took out admins on the estate they won't be in the register.

I've only looked at one from 1808. As most of the wills for Somerset were lost in WW2 it was all I had to go on - of the four people named no relationship was given for two and the other two were called nephews when in fact they were great nephews, but it did give me a better idea of how much the estate was worth which is often impossible to work out from a will alone.

Carole

[jeenie]

Thank you again Carole.  And thank you also Valda for your most detailed and comprehensive response.

I am in the process of following up further.

[sometimes the Brain does not always function as it used to, and can take longer to understand and absorb.]

And I would never have picked up on the association of Pimlico to St George Hanover Square, such geographical associations in England do not come naturally.


Please be assured that I really do most appreciate the effort you have both put in to provide the information, help and assistance.


And I thank you also on behalf of our extended family (here), some of whom had asked that I undertake research on their behalf, their being absolutely convinced of the veracity of what has been passed down from great grandpa through different Lines.

[Valda]

The detail varies from Death Duty record to Death Duty record and as in all records you always question reliability. However the general rule is the bigger the estate the more likely it will be that the Death Duty record will more detailed, because with more money more tax is being paid. As only beneficaries are mentioned that's why checking the 1802 could be useful since George Hall was the major beneficiary. If there was no relationship then no relationship will be given in the Death Duty register. The other useful details that a Death Duty record might contain

'Because the registers could be annotated for many years after the first entry, they can include information such as dates of death of spouse; dates of death or marriage of beneficiaries;'

So you would be looking for such details about George Hall in the Death Duty register e.g. did he die in 1819 since it is known that is when George Brown died. If he did that would be quite 'coincidental'. Are both surnames given for the man for instance or does he remain George Hall?


Regards


Valda

[jeenie]

Just an update -

I have found the microfiche Index of Eng/Wls Wills from 1858 in the local genealogy Society and have ordered the Wills etc for Thomas Charles d 2 Jul 1868 and his wife Fanny (Frances) d 22 Apr 1870, and Lancelot Robert d 11 Feb 1868 and his wife Anna Maria d 17 Mar 1872 and their (spinster) daughter Anna Maria d 1 Oct 1872.  Also writing to The Probate Registry for (any) details of the Administration and Disposition (and etc) of the Estates for Lancelot Jnr MP, and the Rev George.

[Valda]

The probate registry only have access to wills and adminsitrations proved by the state that is only from 1858 onwards.
Their printed calendar of wills begins in 1858 as you already know and therefore they will know nothing of wills, adminsitrations or Death Duties payable on earlier wills. In the case of Death Duties they won't know anything about those records post 1858 either. What they hold is purely copies of wills and adminstrations.

Earlier wills (and administrations) were proved by church courts and have been deposited in record offices. In the case of Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills and administrations they are deposited with The National Archives, but administrations are not covered by their online index. I don't really know what you mean by 'Disposition (and etc) of the Estates'. If you mean the tax paid on the estate which gives you an indication of the real value of the estate and what actually happened after the death to beneficaries then that is the Death Duty Register. As it was a state (inheritance tax) it is a government record and government records are deposited at The National Archives.

The Probate Service will not be able to help you with anything to do with Lancelot Brown juniors will (PCC) or the Death Duty register (all at TNA) or the possibility of a will or administration for the Rev George Brown circa 1819. He definitely did not leave a PCC will or that would be in the online TNA index. That leaves you with a possibility there was a PCC adminsitration. If there was a will or administration proved locally in doesn't appear in the Gloucestershire or Somerset Record Offices online indexes.

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx

http://www.somerset.gov.uk/archives/

(not sure whether these indexes also cover adminstrations as well)

Bath is in Somerset and your issue with Somerset wills is that a large proportion of them were lost in a bombing raid during the Second World War - see 'See our notes about Somerset wills' on the Somerset Record Office website. The Death Duty (Estate Duty) Registers of course do survive for these wills and takes you back to TNA.

Since both Thomas Charles Brown and Lancelot Robert Brown died a long time after the Rev George Brown (50 years) and they had families of their own, they or their children's wills are unlikely to shed much light on George Brown. You really need to access the Death Duty Register at TNA for Lancelot Brown's PCC will and you can only do that by either visiting TNA or engaging a researcher, or request a look up on Rootschat, though many people visiting TNA have little experience or knowledge of the Death Duty registers which is a shame as they can be very helpful.

In the end this particular pathway, to try and find out further information about the major beneficiary of Lancelot Brown's will, can only be resolved by the records held at The National Archives.


Regards

Valda

[jeenie]

I don’t really know what I meant myself, except a faulty understanding of the Probate Records and Family History site.

The following is from http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1183.htm :

“Probate grants for each year are listed alphabetically by surname. The crucial parts of the Probate record are the Grant type, which is usually 'Probate', 'Administration' or 'Administration with Will', the issuing Registry, and the grant issue date. They are normally written in sequence towards the end of the index entry, but the older books give the grant date first and highlight the issuing Registry in the text of the entry. The grant type can be inferred from the text, but note that the indexes prior to 1871 listed the 'Administration' grants in a separate part of the book from the 'Probate' and 'Administration with Will' grants, so be sure to search in both places for years prior to this . . .

"If the grant type is 'Administration', this tells you that the person in question did not leave a valid Will. However, the Probate Registries can still supply a copy of the grant, which is the document naming the person appointed in law as the administrator of the estate. This can provide genealogical information, especially in older grants where the relationship of the applicant to the deceased was stated. . . . Don't expect to find inventories on file for records after 1858, although they sometimes form part of the Probate record prior to this.

“In many cases you can save a lot of time and money by making the search yourself, but there is a postal service by which a search is made on your behalf for a period of four years. There is a fee of £5 for this, but this includes copies of the Will and/or grant if a record is found. It also gives you the benefit of the experience of Probate staff, for instance in knowing when to search and judging under which name the record is likely to be listed.”

So because of my faulty interpretation of the above, I have unfortunately already written to The Probate Registry, with a £10-00 sterling cheque enclosed.

The local Genealogy Society provides a Service where they will obtain “ENG/WLS Wills and Admons” on your behalf, for a fee.  I thought it just possible, although very remote, that one of the 5 ie, Thomas Charles etc, just might have mentioned a Robert ie, my great grand father, in one of their Wills.  But I have spent so much time and so much money on this investigation that I thought it would be a pity not to tie up this end completely.  And for this purpose, probably just the Wills should suffice.

(it is close on 3:00 am, so I shall have to leave this, pro tem)