The Mystery associated with Lancelot (Capability) Brown

[Valda]

The grant of probate looks a bit like the information you get on an adminstration, it is the details of who is being granted the probate i.e. me if I am the one going through all the paperwork to have a will proved. The purpose of the grant is

'The grant is proof that the person or persons named in it are entitled to collect in and distribute the monies or other assets of the deceased and may be produced to those organisations (banks, building societies, etc.) holding such assets.'

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1216.htm

When you order a will you automatically get the grant of probate.

'If you make your own search and order copies by post: £5 for each estate: this fee includes a copy of the Will [if any], regardless of the number of pages, and a copy of the grant.'

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm#details

From the same page but now out of date because The Family Records Centre has gone so the outreach bit in central London they held for TNA is now only with TNA in west London (Kew) so for 'Family Records Centre' read TNA.

'What about Probate Records before 1858?
The Probate Service does not hold any records or documents prior to 1858. If you require information about these, you are recommended to contact:

The Family Records Centre,
1 Myddelton Street,
London EC1R 1UW

Tel. 020 8392 5300

or your local authority archivist for guidance.'

Again I would encourage you to read the TNA research guides e.g. 'Wills before 1858'

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=220

Which begins and ends with this information

'Before 1858, over 250 church courts dealt with wills and administrations.
The records of most of these courts are kept in local record offices..........The records of only one court can be seen at The National Archives. This is the Prerogative Court of Canterbury'

All the research guides can be found on the TNA website

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp

so you can scroll down and choose which to read. The ones concerned with wills and administrations are

Wills and Death Duty Records After 1858

Wills and Probate Records

Wills Before 1858: Where to Start

and

Death Duty Records, From 1796

Death Duty Registers, How to Interpret

I understand it is always worth accessing wills. I hold copies of many many wills myself - into the hundreds, since I research a one name study, but very few mention anyone in their wills who is dead. From memory I can only think of one where the single woman involved starts with the phrase 'I am the daughter of ...'. To be frank in legal terms it is irrelevant who she is the daughter of (since she isn't leaving money to herself or her dead father) just that it is clearly stated who she is leaving her money etc to and who those people are. It isn't even strictly speaking necessary to say what relationship they are to her though it helps in clarifying who they are. Therefore by the nature of the legal document we are dealing with its purpose is not to establish genealogical connections. That occurs only when a will is contested by relatives. See the litigation section of TNA research guide 'Wills and probate records' some of which have been indexed in TNA online catalogue - which I searched first of all for Lancelot Brown just in case and found nothing.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp


Regards


Valda

[jeenie]

Thank you again, Valda, for your so kind and detailed responses.

I think I have a fair grasp of it now.

Your patience, and effort in all this are very much appreciated.

[Dancing Master]

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/madjack/pafg14.htm#223


This provides a tree which may help.

[Valda]

It is the 'Fuller' tree only showing some of what is already known. Frances Fuller married Lancelot Brown junior so it concentrates on the Fuller family and their connections and doesn't delve very far into the Brown family and certainly not as far as a potential 'shadowy' illegitimate son. For that you are back to exploring records at TNA (Death Duty) and/or the parish registers for Stirtloe since there is an exact date of birth known for George Brown.

According to the present Archivist of Sidney Sussex College, Cambrige, "from Venn's Alumni Cantobrigienses George Brown, the son of Lancelot Brown of Hirtloe (sic - Stirtloe ?) House, Hunts., was born there on 27 September 1785 . . .  He was admitted as Fellow-commoner at Sidney on 27 September 1810 . . ."

Parish registers for Buckden (which is the parish Stirtloe was in) are not on the IGI or BVRI and only they would show the maternal link. Of course there may not be a baptism to find in these parish registers but you don't know unless you check - searching for Hall or Brown.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HUN/Buckden/index.html

Parish registers for Huntingdon are now held in Cambridgeshire Record Office

http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/visiting/crohuntingdon.htm


Regards

Valda

[toddee]

I am a newbie intersted in Capability Brown as we think my family are direct descendants.  My mother, who refused to talk about family matters, has just died and among her hidden things we found a partial tree written by my grandmother, Mary (Madge) Brown of Winterton, LIncs.  She had the following:
Lancelot Brown1715-1783
Thomas Brown died 1820 (I have him born 1861 from a book on Capability Brown.) She had him down as Rector of Fenstanton, Nothamptonshire for 40 years.  His son, Thomas Brown, 1857-1925 married Annie Maria Barley in 1879 (registered at Glanford Brigg) and had 13 children (two deceased in early childhood): my grandmother was the ninth live birth: Mary Elizabeth born 11/6/1892.

Does this fit with anyone else's records?  We would love to hear.

Val (Todd)

[Valda]

Hi Val welcome to Rootschat

I'm afraid your information and dates don't match to Capability Brown's family. The tree itself doesn't really make a lot of sense dates wise at the crucial part where it tries to make a link with Capability's son Thomas and Mary Elizabeth's father Thomas. 

'Thomas Brown died 1820 (I have him born 1861 from a book on Capability Brown.) She had him down as Rector of Fenstanton, Nothamptonshire for 40 years.  His son, Thomas Brown, 1857-1925'

I think you mean Thomas was born 1761 and died 1820 (I think actually 1829) in which case it would be impossible for him to have fathered a son born in 1857 called Thomas. The dates for the Rev Thomas Brown 1761-1829 of Fenstanton, the son of 'Capability' Brown are correct as is a birth year of circa 1857 for Mary Elizabeth's father Thomas.

This looks more like Mary Elizabeth's line of Browns in Lincolnshire.

Winterton is in Glanford Brigg registration district.

1901 census RG13 3103 folio 8
Low Street Winterton Lincolnshire
Thomas Brown 43  Head Married Florist Swaby Lincolnshire
Annie M Brown 45  Wife Married Whitton Lincolnshire
William Brown 20  Son
Charles Brown 18  Son
Mabel Brown 14 Daughter
Henry Brown 12 Son
Christopher A Brown 10 Son
Mary E Brown 9 Daughter
Archbald Brown 8 Son
Ernest Brown 4  Son
Violet Brown 2 Daughter
children all born Winterton

The family was in Winterton in 1891. Thomas was a gardener aged 33 born Swaby. His wife's name was given as Annie Maria. Eldest son was Frederick aged 11 born Winterton.

1881 census RG11 3286 folio 14
Low Street Winterton Lincolnshire
Tom Brown 23 Head Married Gardener and seedsman  Swaby Lincolnshire
Annie Maria Brown 25 Wife Married Whitton Lincolnshire
Frederick Brown 1 Son Winterton Lincolnshire

So after his marriage Thomas was very consistent with occupation, age and place of birth.

1861 census RG9 2379 folio 11
Swaby Lincolnshire
Fredrick Brown 28 Head Married  Gardener Burwell Lincolnshire
Eliza Brown 30 Wife Married Swaby Lincolnshire
Mary Ann Brown 7 Daughter Swaby Lincolnshire
Tom Brown 3 Son Swaby Lincolnshire

1871 census RG10 3322 folio 6
4 Haines Yard Spalding Lincolnshire
Frederick Brown 35 Head Married Gardener Burwell Lincolnshire
Alice Brown 28  Wife Married Weston Hills Lincolnshire
Thomas Brown 13  Son White Pit Lincolnshire

1851 census HO107 2110 folio 426
South Ormsby, Lincolnshire
Frederick Brown  18  Burwell, Lincolnshire, Servant  Labourer

A strong possibility on the 1841 census is this entry, but either of Frederick's two marriages would confirm his father's name and occupation, as would Thomas' marriage for his father's details.

1841 census HO107 641/14 enumeration schedule 5
South Ormsby
Joseph Brown 40  Gardener
Mary Brown 40 
George Brown 17  Gardener
John Brown 12 
Frederick Brown 10 
William Brown 5 
Betsey Brown 7 
Fanny Brown 2 
all born Lincolnshire - adult ages (those over 15) are usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.

1851 census HO107 2111 folio 484
Kidgate Louth Lincolnshire
Joseph Brown 52  Head Married Gardener North Willingham Lincolnshire
Mary Brown 49 Wife Married Market Raisen Lincolnshire
George Brown 26  Son Tead Dealer North Willingham Lincolnshire
Charles Brown 9  Son South Ormsby Lincolnshire
Joseph Brown 4 Son Swaby Lincolnshire
plus three lodgers

JOSEPH BROWN
Christening:  24 JUN 1798   North Willingham, Lincoln
Father:  JOHN BROWN 
Mother:  ELIZ. 

JOSEPH BROWN
MARY LOWNDS   
Marriage:  28 AUG 1821   North Willingham, Lincoln
 
siblings

JOHN BROWN
Christening:  19 MAR 1797   North Willingham, Lincoln
Father:  JOHN BROWN 
Mother:  ELIZ.

WM. BROWN   
Christening:  06 DEC 1801   North Willingham, Lincoln
Father:  JOHN BROWN 
Mother:  ELIZ. 

ELIZ. BROWN
Christening:  30 SEP 1804   North Willingham, Lincoln
Father:  JOHN BROWN 
Mother:  ELIZ 

So the probable (you could prove the census entries through obtaining the necessary marriage certificates) 2 x great grandfather of Mary Elizabeth Brown was John Brown who was having children with his wife Elizabeth in North Willingham Lincolnshire in the late C18th early C19th, and the family background on censuses was one of relatively ordinary villagers.

Information from censuses on Thomas Charles Brown the son of the Rev Thomas Brown of Fenstanton and brother of Lancelot Robert Brown have already been stated in earlier messages

'Thomas Charles Brown was still alive on the 1861 census, aged 69, born Conington Cambridgeshire'

and

Thomas Charles was married by his brother to Frances Page, 17 Sep no later than 1825, and in 1841 were living with children Frances, Augusta Marcia and Lancelot Charles in Somersham, in 1851 with the younger 2 in St Georges Westminster, and in 1861 he was living with his brother Lancelot Robert and etc in Kelsale.

and

'have ordered the Wills etc for Thomas Charles d 2 Jul 1868 and his wife Fanny (Frances) d 22 Apr 1870,'

'Thomas Charles Brown died 1868 in Chelsea registration district.'


Regards


Valda

[toddee]

oops!  meant to say "grandson" not "son" Thomas Brown, 1857-1925  - i was so excited to find this and it was the early hours!  Val

[Valda]

Val

I'm sorry to disappoint  but it really doesn't matter  whether you mean son or grandson, you don't seem to have a credible match to Capability Brown's wealthy and well connected family.

The Rev Thomas Brown 1761-1829, the son of 'Capability' Brown left a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will, indicating that he was a man of substance.

Will of Reverend Thomas Brown, Clerk of Conington , Cambridgeshire 14 August 1830 PROB 11/1774

You could order this will from The National Archives if you want, but others have done the same so the Rev Thomas Brown's family are well researched.

To become at this time a 'Reverend' Thomas Brown would have to have attended the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge in a time when education would have to be paid for by the families themselves. Only the rich could afford for their sons to attend Oxford or Cambridge University let alone afford the private school education necessary beforehand. These were the only two universities in England at the time.

The Rev Thomas Brown had three children.

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/madjack/pafg14.htm#223

'Rev Thomas Brown was born in 1761 in Hammersmith, London. He died on 20 Dec 1829 in Conington, Cambridgeshire. He was buried in Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire. He married Susan Dickins in 1761.

Susan Dickins died on 18 Jan 1833 in Saxmundham, Suffolk. She married Rev Thomas Brown in 1761.

They had the following children:

   M i Thomas Charles Brown  Clergyman. Curate of Somersham, Isle of Ely.
   F ii Susan Brown.
   M iii Rev Lancelot Robert Brown died on 11 Feb 1868.  '

On the 1851 census Thomas Charles Brown was aged 59 (birth circa 1792). His wife was Frances was aged 48 (she died in 1870). Their youngest child on that census was 21 - both were born Huntingdon. With the family on the census in St George Hanover Square in London was a butler, a ladies maid, a cook and a housemaid. On the 1861 census Thomas Charles was Curate of St Peter's Pimlico in Westminster.

Thomas Charles was the younger of the two sons of the Rev Thomas Brown who had married young. Thomas Charles' older brother Lancelot Robert Brown was 65 (birth circa 1786) on the 1851 census living in Kelsale Huntingdon and also born Huntingdon. His daughter Anna Maria was 40 (her mother also Anna Maria was 74 in 1861, but not with the family in 1851). In 1851 the household also consisted of a butler, a coachman, a footman, a housekeeper, a lady's maid, a cook and housemaid. The family was still in Kelsale Suffolk on the 1861 census.

As you might expect of the grandsons of Capability Brown both these men were very wealthy and again like their father must have attended either Oxford or Cambridge Universities to hold their positions in the Church of England having studied theology.

On the 1901 census Mary E Brown your grandmother and her family were in Winterton Lincolnshire. Her father Thomas now a florist, but on previous censuses a gardener was born in Swaby Lincolnshire circa 1857. From censuses his father appears to be Frederick Brown born Burwell Lincolnshire circa 1833. This Brown line would seem to go back in Lincolnshire until at least the late part of the C18th and be firmly placed amongst the rural working classes.

Regards

Valda

[Siamese Girl]

Without wanting to sound daft I wonder if this is one of those handed down family stories - with the link being gardening? Family name Brown + gardening = Capability Brown.

Our family swore they were descended from the Child family who were bankers ....... nope ..... they aren't - although you can't convince some people!

Carole