Robert McIntyre-Robert Frew same person?

[tidybooks]

Is anybody got info why these 2 names are the same person?

On IGI, There is a Robert McIntyre Frew married to a Mary McNair on 9th Sep 1864 in Stevenston, Ayrshire. (Submitted Record).  I have a marriage certificate of Robert McIntyre to Mary Weir on 9th Sep 1864 in Stevenston, Ayrshire. (This is also an extracted record on IGI). However both Robert and Mary could not write and were illegitimate, but their mothers were alive but had since married and changed names but not to a Frew.

Robert McIntyre was either born in 1837 or 1841 to a Margaret McIntyre b 1821 Stevenston who subsequently married Peter McCartney in 1851. If a Mr Weir either married Margaret after birth of Robert, or was the actual father of Robert but never married her, could be 2 explanations.

I have found a Poor Relief record for Stevenston, it says “Robert McIntyre or Frew Windmill Street Age 44 years (1881) By birth Coal Miner Wife Mary Weir age 35 Agnes 13 b Kyleshill, Charlotte 8, Eliz 4, Anna 1, Robert 10, John 6.”

Charlotte Frew or Welsh in Townhead St, a widow aged 24, has John 2 ˝ and Agnes 4 months, daughter of Robert Frew labourer and Mary Weir. Her husband William Welsh a marine fireman aged 25 b Stevenston drowned at Genoa on 07/04/1896 from Poor releif records in Stevenston

This is the Charlotte Adams McIntyre who used Frew as middle names for her children and is in my family tree.

Does anybody know why Robert McIntyre used Frew when he was older? Was Frew his natural father's surname that did not marry his mother? Did his mother marry a Frew but it is not on SP or IGI etc?

Tom

[MonicaL]

Hi Tom

I saw your update on www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=243687.new;topicseen#new (just got back from holiday and catching up!)

From the 1864 marriage cert for Robert and wife Mary Weir, from what you said, both showed as illegitimate and as such I imagen no fathers' names were given.  What were the full names of their mothers? Was Robert's mother confirmed as Margaret McIntyre (I just wondered about the name Margaret BROWN MCINTYRE who shows as first born to Robert and Mary).

Regards.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

Tom

If Robert's mother was Margaret McIntyre, then these are the most obvious entries on 1841/51:

1841:

John McIntyre    50, lab., b. Ireland
Jean McIntyre    40, b. Ireland
Margret McIntyre 20, Muslin Flowrer
Charles McIntyre 17
James McIntyre    15
Elisabeth McIntyre 12
Joseph McIntyre 9
David McIntyre    6
Uphemia McIntyre 4
Ann McIntyre    2
Robt McIntyre    1

Address: Town Head Street, Stevenston, Ayrshire

1851:
As transcribed. Maybe a second  marriage for John Snr (or wife's name mistranscribed in one of the entries). Everyone apart from John and Elizabeth showing as born in Stenster (Stevenston most likely  )

John McSutyre    61, coal miner, b. Ireland
Elisabeth McSutyre 53, b. Ireland
Margaret McSutyre 30, Hand Needle Sewer
Charles McSutyre 27, coal miner
James McSutyre    25, coal miner
Joseph McSutyre 19, coal miner
David McSutyre    17, coal miner
Euphemia McSutyre 13
Ann McSutyre    11
Robert McSutyre 11
John McSutyre    8
Hugh McSutyre    5
Jane McSutyre    3

Address:  6 Cressent Row, Eglenton Iron Works, Kilwinning

With the family in Kilwinning, this would leave Margaret well placed for her marriage to Peter McCartney in Kilwinning a couple of months later.

This looks like Margaret and Peter in 1861:

Peter McCartney 37, Silk Weaver, b. Kilwinning
Margaret McCartney 38, Muslin Sewer, b. Stevenston
Marion McCartney 7, b. Stevenston
Peter McCartney 3, b. Stevenston

Address:  21 Schoolwell St, Stevenston

Margaret's death cert would hopefully let you confirm you have the right family in 1841/51:
1873   MCCARTNEY   MARGARET       MCINTYRE   54   STEVENSTON   /AYR   615/00 0072


Tom, it is not uncommon for illegitimate children to use the surname of their reputed father if known to them in later life (and use them interchangeably which can be confusing). From the way Robert used the surname FREW, it would appear that he knew the name of his father and used it in later years. Not sure if you will necessarily know who his father was though unfortunately.

Monica 

[tidybooks]

Hi Monica,

I have reproduced part of marriage certificate or Robert McIntyre to Mary Weir, shows both unmarried mothers, hence the Margaret Brown McIntyre.  You will see my next quest why was Mary a Weir?

Tom


(Signed) + his mark      Stevenson   Father (Blank)
Robert McIntyre   23      
Collier         
(Batchelor)                    Margaret McIntyre
                                      now McCartney
         
(Signed) + her mark         
Mary Weir   18   Saltcoats                                  Father (Blank)
Field Labourer      Stevenson   
(Spinster)         
                                   Margaret Brown
                                   Handsewer now Divine
      

[MonicaL]

Tom

I think you have probably a similar story with Mary as you do with Robert. Mary Brown knew the name of her father and used it as Robert did intermittently. In the 1861 census she looks to be living with her mother Margaret Brown who had married Robert Devine (and all the variants) in 1859. Mary actually shows an Ireland birth place in 1861 which might explain why I can't find her or her mother Margaret in 1851. Likely mother and daughter came over to Ayrshire after this census.  There is also a sister showing, Agnes:

Robert Devins    48, agr. lab. b. Saltcoats
Margret Devins    38, Muslin Sewer b. Ireland
Mary Devins    14, Muslin Sewer b. Ireland
Agnes Devins    8, b. Saltcoats

Address:  Green St, Saltcoats, Ardrossan, Ayrshire

So, from the list of children you showed for Robert and Mary:

Margaret Brown McIntyre   b 1865 Stevenston - name of Robert and Mary's mothers and Mary's mother's maiden name
Agnes Divens McIntyre   b 1868 Saltcoats - probably called after Mary's sister
Robert Divens McIntyre   b 1871 Stevenston - probably called after Mary's stepfather (maybe also Robert's father's first name?)
Charlotte Adams McIntyre    b 1873 Stevenston - no idea!
John McIntyre   b 1875 Saltcoats - Margaret McIntyre's father (I checked her DC  )
Elizabeth McIntyre   b 1878 Saltcoats - Margaret McIntyre's mother - maiden name BROWN
Ann McIntyre  b 1880 Saltcoats - no idea

You might get some additional clues onn the children's names from Margaret Brown Devine's marriage or death certs.

Not sure Tom if you can find out names of their fathers other than the surnames you have. You also have original Irish lines with the McIntyres and Brown names.

Regards.

Monica 

[tidybooks]

Hi Monica,

Yes, it is looking like I will never know the Fathers names. I have got the marriage certificate of Robert Divans (another mistranscription) to Margaret Brown, note they are widow and widower. Not too much help with childrens names but my mother was a martha from this isde of the family.

1859   (Signed) + his mark                      Green Street            Peter Divans
on the sixteenth   Robert Divans   49   Saltcoats                    Labourer
day of December   Labourer         
at Canalsticks   (Widower)                         Martha Holmes
Saltcoats            
            
After Banns,    (Signed) + her mark         
Marriage was   Margaret Brown   36   Green Street   Samuel Brown
solemnised between   (Widow)      Saltcoats                   Weaver
us according to the             
Church of Scotland                                             Elizabeth Campbell


Tom

PS maybe I should be looking for a Margaret brown married to somone named Weir, and maybe Mary was issue from that marriage.            

[MonicaL]

Tom

Mary shows as illegitimate in her MC from what you said, so if mother Margaret Brown did marry previously it may have been after Mary was born c. 1846/7. I suppose you could double check Mary Weir's DC to see whether there were any father details included on that (you might be lucky!) but as likely it will be blank like her MC.

It's a pity that period of late 1850s was so poor with info. There is a deluge of info on certs in 1855 and then they cut back a lot until the early 1860s when additional info was reintroduced. Couldn't see anything relevant for a marriage for a Margaret to a Weir unfortunately either in Scotland or Ireland.

If Robert also shows as a widower, then I'm not sure now whether daughter Agnes was his from a first marriage or Margaret Brown's daughter.

Monica

[tidybooks]

Hi Monica,

Getting closer, a John Weir married a Margaret Brown on 28 Jan 1848 in Hamilton, Lanarkshire. This is an extracted record on IGI. They have 2 of a family on IGI, John born 18 Sep 1848 and Margaret born 24 Mar 1855. As usual when things look like going smooth, ker-pow, door slams on face,

 Mary is supposed to be born, 01 Nov 1845 in Dalry, her "parents" are not married yet. Her DC on 5 Dec 1915, gives her parents as Robert Weir (Coal miner) and Margaret Brown, death was registered by her daughter Charlotte Morgan, who was Charlotte Adams McIntyre.

Now to try and prove Robert or John Weir?

Tom

[MonicaL]

I'll have a look for John Weir and wife on the 1861 census, if nothing else to exclude them.