Author Topic: ELSWORTH families in America  (Read 10301 times)

Offline tickle

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ELSWORTH families in America
« on: Sunday 22 June 08 21:25 BST (UK) »
Can anyone give me a primary source (ie Marriage Register) for the marriage of John Ellsworth to Lucia Bower 20 Dec 1613 in Cambridgeshire, England, or his birth on 3 Feb 1578 also in Cambridgeshire. (Note: Ancestral File is not a primary source, it is a fairy tale!)
I would like to give a prize to the first person who can give me the information, but I don't think it will be forthcoming. Or perhaps you know better?
Thanks
Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening -Tottenham, Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Kent, Sussex, Hants
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Norman - Cambs
Oldham - Lancs
Petley - Suffolk
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck - Netherlands, & New York State
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Urmson - Cheshire
Webb - Cambs
West - Hants
Westley - Cambs
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex
Wrixon - Co Cork, Ireland

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Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #1 on: Monday 23 June 08 08:42 BST (UK) »
What amazes me is that scores of Americans copy each others trees perpetuating the place name Eelstown, or Eletown, Cambs. There is no such place, either in Cambs or anywhere else in England. So where did all the Ellsworth births and deaths come from, at a time when only baptisms and burials were recorded in parish registers? Has someone with a vivid imagination linked the surname Ellsworth with the place name Elsworth in Cambs, and turned it into Eelstown? Odd that precise dates should be linked with a non-existent parish!

Is there any real evidence as to the birthplace and parentage of Josiah Ellsworth who died in Hartford Conn? If Eelstown is fictitious, could John and Lucia be  equally fictitious?

Apart from the fantasy entries on the IGI I can find no trace of a surname Ellsworth in Cambs

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

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Offline tickle

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #2 on: Monday 23 June 08 09:17 BST (UK) »
Hello David
Thanks for replying. It's not just me then! You've obviously been playing with this one for some time as well. I actually contacted the son of the person who posted some of the the original information some years ago, and he had absolutely no idea where this came from. I have checked Pembrokeshire records (sparse they are,) for Lucia Bower's death/will and drawn a complete blank.  I have checked both Holy Trinity, and St Mary, Ely, and Elsworth parish registers, another blank, and if you go into the various Ancestral Files on LDS the dates vary wildly. They also put Bristol in Cambridgeshire!!!! There doesn't appear to be a primary source for the baptism of Josiah Ellsworth, or Theophilus/Stoffell Elsworth in Bristol. I even investigated Timberscombe in Somerset!
There has to be an original 'source' for this rubbish somewhere. Meanwhile there are a lot of people out there perpetuating the myth. It's a great pity we can't zap the Ancestral file, but it appears that once sealed, it's there for ever, which I find grossly irresponsible on the part of the LDS. It's a pity that they don't operate a central forum so that these incorrect or dubious entries can be challenged. Rant over!
Thanks for getting in touch, If you do ever find the answer. please let me know and I shall do likewise for you.
Take care
Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening -Tottenham, Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Kent, Sussex, Hants
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Norman - Cambs
Oldham - Lancs
Petley - Suffolk
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck - Netherlands, & New York State
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Urmson - Cheshire
Webb - Cambs
West - Hants
Westley - Cambs
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex
Wrixon - Co Cork, Ireland

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #3 on: Monday 23 June 08 11:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Tickle

No, I looked at it for half an hour after I read your post. I know how difficult it can be to prove where a party to a marriage was from, even if he lived only two villages away, and pre 1754 it's even more difficult. I've seen enough US immigrants to know that it can be nigh on impossible to pin them down in England, or Wales, or wherever. And when Ancestral File or member submissions on the IGI have exact dates but no parish (or the parish is nonsense as in this case) then I start smelling rats.

I totally agree with your view of Ancestral Files, which is one of of my hobby horses too!  The problem is that when enough gullible people just copy what they see there, and then publish their own tree online, eventually a critical mass builds up and anyone starting out looks at it and thinks "well if everyone has that it must be right"

Good luck

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline tickle

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #4 on: Monday 23 June 08 14:50 BST (UK) »
Hello David
I agree with you about the whiff of rodent. I find it truly amazing that people accept all this twaddle at face value without bothering to check it. I even check primary sources, and if I have 2 primary sources which corroborate each other my cup runneth over! I get thoroughly ungruntled as well by these people who link them selves into a pedigree which traces their ancestry back to Charlemagne and Gog and Magog. Haven't these people ever heard of milkmen, or a roll in the hay on a summer night? (I seem to remember that was a bit scratchy, but never mind.)

Our ancestors' paths may have crossed at some point. My 5x great grandfather John Woodham farmed Gastlings at Southill untill 1771 and the family were at Stanfordbury until the late 1700s.

Take care

Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening -Tottenham, Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Kent, Sussex, Hants
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Norman - Cambs
Oldham - Lancs
Petley - Suffolk
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck - Netherlands, & New York State
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Urmson - Cheshire
Webb - Cambs
West - Hants
Westley - Cambs
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex
Wrixon - Co Cork, Ireland

Offline elsworj

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #5 on: Monday 17 November 08 22:41 GMT (UK) »
My understanding is that of John & Lucia's offspring only Josiah made his way to the US and his name first appears in the records of Windsor, CT, USA on 16 Nov 1654 when he married Elizabeth Holcombe whose father was born in Devon. The source of this information makes no claim as to Josiah's birthplace nor date of marriage of his parents. I have seen, but cannot remember where at present, some information that John Ellsworth may have come from Derbyshire and not Cambridgeshire! In 1655 Josiah bought a property known as 'Elmwood' in Windsor, CT, which was deeded in 1903 [by the heirs of Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth] to the Connecticut Daughters of the American Revolution. It is now a museum.

I have also been told that the name was originally "de Elsworth", being of Norman origin, the "de" was dropped leaving "Elsworth", after which the Cambridgeshire village took its name. The first "Elsworth" to make landfall in the US was likely to have been John [he above] and it was there due to poor spelling/illiteracy etc, etc, that the name took on its second L.

I am still attempting to connect those "Ellsworth's" to myself, being spelt Elsworth.

Jeremy.

Offline tickle

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #6 on: Monday 17 November 08 23:58 GMT (UK) »
Hello Jeremy

Sorry to be pedantic but it is this 'evidence' for the existence of John and Lucia which is missing! So who their alleged offspring are becomes irrelevant. The CT Ellsworths always used the LL whereas the New York Elsworths used the single L until the early 19th century when for unknown reasons the second L crept in. It may be that your search for ancestors should therefore be in NY not CT!

As for the naming of Elsworth in Cambridgeshire you seem to have found the cart infron of the horse! If a man is named 'de Elsworth' it is because he is 'from' or 'of' Elsworth, in other words the place was there long before he was, and he was not there at the time. If he was in Elsworth, he would not be called 'of' Elsworth. This is quite likely as the Manor existed as far back as the late 10th century ie 100 years before the Norman conquest.

I would love to be able to find the source for all these myths about John and Lucia, and I could quite cheerfully strangle the person who put them, unsourced, into the public domain where they have caused nothing but confusion ever since. So if you do come across a proper, verifiable source for all this, please do let me know.

Meanwhile, if you do connect to the NY family you can rest assured that the family has been properly sourced back to 1625!

Regards

Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening -Tottenham, Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Kent, Sussex, Hants
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Norman - Cambs
Oldham - Lancs
Petley - Suffolk
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck - Netherlands, & New York State
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Urmson - Cheshire
Webb - Cambs
West - Hants
Westley - Cambs
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex
Wrixon - Co Cork, Ireland

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 18 November 08 11:19 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jeremy

Welcome to Rootschat

Does the 1654 marriage to Elizabeth Holcombe actually name Josiah's parents as John and Lucia? If not where do their names come from - guesswork?

See the authoritative Victoria County History for details of Elsworth at http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15456

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline tickle

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Re: ELSWORTH families in America
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 18 November 08 14:41 GMT (UK) »
Hello David and Jeremy

It would surely be highly unlikely for a 1654 marriage to name anyone but the bride and groom, (and sometimes even the bride's family name gets left off which accounts for one of my brick walls!)

It would be interesting however to have a transcript of the complete marriage entry for the proces of elimination.

Take care

Tickle
Alder - Berks
Benning/Bening -Tottenham, Middx, & Cambs
Brook - Suffolk/Cambs
Burton - Kent, Sussex, Hants
Ellington - Suffolk/Cambs
Elsworth - New York
Grasemann - Germany & London
Howels - Hants
Mitchell - Sussex, Surrey
Norman - Cambs
Oldham - Lancs
Petley - Suffolk
Raines - Co Cork, Ireland
Rysdyck - Netherlands, & New York State
Ryder - Cheshire/Lancs
Urmson - Cheshire
Webb - Cambs
West - Hants
Westley - Cambs
Woodham - Cambs, Beds, Essex
Wrixon - Co Cork, Ireland