Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican

[PaulSlo]

Further matters.
      Gary has found that Benjamin actually signed his son's death certificate - so he was literate.
      However, a few mysteries remain. Gary is considering a theory that a marriage between a Benjamin Cawthra and a Sarah Asquith at Bradford in 1821 may be 'ours' - maybe the vicar misheard the name. However, Bradford is a distance from Birstall, and this Benjamin couldn't write and so had to sign the certificate with 'his mark'. So we agree that the marriage certificate we are looking for may still be out there - maybe at Batley or Dewsbury.
      The other mystery concerns Benjamin's other children. There may have been a John Crowther born in 1823, and the 1851 census has a son called William in the household. But they are not listed with the family in the 1841 census...
      Finally, if the 1795 Benjamin is indeed ours, his dad William was born at Birstall in 1762/3, and his father was a Peter, who was born in the 1720's. But as I got it wrong before don't rely on this!
      That's all for now.
      Paul

[PaulSlo]

New detective work from Gary Murphy.
     There was, indeed, a son called John born to Benjamin Crowther and Sarah Asquith. He was baptised on August 24th 1823, and died on February 13th 1825. Gary has copies of both the baptismal and death certificates.
     He's also solved the mystery of the extra son  'William'. I quote him

'Hannah Crowther married William Hodgson on Oct 13th 1850 at Leeds parish church, she states her address as Mabgate Fold and her father as Benjamin.
So in the 1851 Mabgate Fold Census “William” aged 20 born at Leeds, is not William (Crowther) but is in fact William HODGSON, Son in Law'.
 
    I think that Gary must be absolutely right on this, as he's correlated the info with subsequent census returns for William and Hannah.
    Paul

[benny9]

Hi all, very interesting about the Ben and Sarah's. It was a good spot seeing the George Kitson in the census I had looked at that return before but did not see it. I can see that this is going to be complicated to work out. I have just been thinking the kids of our Ben and Sarah have the birth place down as Scholes. Am I right in saying Scholes is closer to Bradford and the wives usually had the first few kids at or near to their families. Are we looking at the right Scholes? it might not be the one near Birstall. And I think it possible that the two Ben's are related cousins maybe. I looked through a lot of records Dewsbury and Birstall and there was very few Bens. To get two in the same trade a few miles apart is a bit strange if they are not in the same family. BEN

[benny9]

Just thought I would post this because it is so good! I had an idea of going to see this engine next year probably at Lincoln. It would be good if a few more Crowthers and relative came too what do people think?

[Geoff Crowther]

Hello to all
Just registered on here after connecting to this thread via ancestry.co.uk.
I've only just started on researching my family history and got the break I needed last night when I finally found an entry for my grandad Crowther. He was John and seems to be the son of William Crowther (1860-1908).
I didn't notice until I read an earlier post on this thread that his birth date (1885) was prior to William's marriage to Margret Mackenzie and was fascinated to read Paul's info on William's earlier marriage to Hannnah Enoch. So, I'm assuming that my grandad Crowther (John) was the son of William & Hannah.
My Dad, Ronald (John's youngest child) remembered the name Famy as one of his Dad's siblings and I'm assuming this to be a shortened version of Euphamia. Can anyone confirm this. Dad also has memories of a Harry (Paul's Dad?).
My Dad's memories of John's family are sketchy. Dad (Ronald) was born in 1929, well after both his paternal grandparents (William & Margret - or Hannah) had died.
John was a skilled horse handler and, I'm told, went to France in WW1 with heavy horses.
My Dad also remembers his Dad talking of his family's work with travelling fairs which correlates with George Crowther's (William's father, & John's grandad) listing in the 1871 census as a "Traveller with swing boat".
Love to hear from anyone related and really interested in getting together to see that superb showman's engine next year.
Cheers all
Geoff

[benny9]

Hi Geoff nice to hear from you it is my side of the Crowthers that travelled through Sarah Elizabeth ( who became Elizabeth Johnson) and Robert, Georges children. I think we have covered much of the stuff we know in this thread so if we can help just ask.  Paul, Gary and Terry are all decended from William they have some more stuff on Williams children and I think there is a photo of Femy knocking around. Speak to you soon BEN

[PaulSlo]

Dear Geoff,
                   To confirm, 'Famy' was indeed, Euphemia Crowther. She was given the name (presumably) because of Maggie Mackenzie's mum (maiden name Euphemia Reid). The 'Harry' you refer to could have been my Dad or Grandad. Both were on the Gipton estate from 1937 onwards. (Where are your people from? Are you still in the Leeds area).
                  I can add interesting new info about the deep genetic ancestors. All the male line from George (and before) are members of the genetic haplogroup N1c1.
                  I mentioned in an earlier post that this is of Finnish origin. I can now tell everyone that there is a research project underway which has linked my genes (and therefore everyone else with a blood relation to George) to a specific historical person called Rurik. His tribe - the Varangian Rus were Swedish Vikings who created the first Russian state in the 9th century. Much of the Russian aristocracy is  descended from him.
                  My genes suggest that Rurik and I have common ancestors - Finns who lived in the Uppland 'county' of Sweden around the Roslagen coastal area (north of Stockholm). They were gradually absorbed into Swedish society and were the Vikings who mainly went east.
                  However, when York was taken by the Vikings in 866, they were led by Swedish ones. There was another wave of incursions involving Swedish Vikings from around 1000 to 1050. So our ancestors were probably Rus who were involved in this (somewhere).
                  Do you have any old family photos?
                  Best wishes,
                  Paul

[benny9]

Hi Paul,
       This stuff about the Vikings is great realy good history, I love it! I will look forward to seeing the results when you have finnished (little joke there).

[Geoff Crowther]

Hi everyone and a very happy new year to you all

Paul, the answers to your questions are:
My Crowther ancestors are clearly the same as yours, at least from George (1827-1894) back. George is my great, great grandfather. I'm assuming from your knowledge of Euphemia and Maggie MacKenzie that your ancestor is probably Harry, William and Maggie's youngest son (born 1902). I'm guessing that's your grandfather; am I right?
So, you probably know that William and Maggie lived on Bridge Road, Headingley in 1891 when my grandad, John (born 1885, presumably to William and Hannah Enoch) was 6 years old. In 1901 they lived in Weaver's Square, East Leeds.
My Dad, Ron, John's youngest son, remembers living on Fawcett St as a child (he was born in 1929) and just yesterday as I was sharing this stuff with him, he remembered going to St.Saviours school which he reckons was just around the corner from Fawcett St.
My grandparents John and Emma (Wilcock) moved to the Wykebecks, a large council estate to the north of Leeds and lived on Wykebeck Avenue when my Dad was a boy. They still lived on Wykebeck Avenue (in a different house) when I was young and I well remember visting them there, pretty much every Sunday. I note that Euphemia (my grandad's half sister) also lived on the Wykebeck's with her hubby, George Mark. My Mum and Dad both remember Aunt Famy well as a lovely natured lady. Dad reckons she inherited Maggie's large stature. Just yesterday he told me a story told to him by his Dad that someone came to their home (William and Maggie's) looking for one of the boys and, for whatever reason, Maggie saw him off with a smart right hook!
John had a bit of a reputation for bareknuckle fighting and also spoke of looking out for his youngest brother (half-brother) Harry. From your earlier story Paul, it rather looks like he picked up some tips from John. (I reckon I've answered my earlier question Paul - this must be your grandad.)

Don't know how well you know Leeds Paul, but the Wykebeck's were quite close (within a couple of miles) to Temple Newsam house and estate. We made regular family visits up there for picnics when I was small. I should add that I'm 56, born in 1953 so my early memories are from the 50s. We didn't have a car until I was around 10 so we walked a lot or used public transport including Leeds' famous trams. I have many happy memories or riding on them and switching the hinged wooden seat backs when they changed direction at the terminus.

After I was born we lived on Spencer Place (which later in the 60s and 70s became the centre of Leeds red light district) and after that on Roxholme Avenue, just the other side of Potternewton Park. I went to Roundhay School, the grammer school on the edge of Roundhay Park. After marrying I lived in Woodlesford, SE of Leeds, then Denby Dale, nr Huddersfield and now Hayfield, Derbyshire. My Mum & Dad moved out to Wetherby.

I'm not sure of the Wykebeck estate's still there. I'm guessing not. When the weather improves (we're deep in snow at the moment, here at my home in the Peak District) I must get on my motorbike and take a trip to some of the places I remember in Leeds.

Ben, found a link re that Showman's engine. Evidently Crowther & Johnsons (of Sheffield) bought it new from Burrell's, the makers, but it was repossessed by Burrell's after 2 years cos our illustrious ancestors couldn't keep up the payments. It cost £2500 new; a lot of brass in them days eh?

I wonder if you guys, Paul and Ben, might consider letting me have your email addresses? I can't fathom out private messaging on this site.
Mine is geoff.kmrt@btinternet.com and I'd really like to be able to contact you directly since we're clearly related.

Finally, attached is a good photo of John Crowther, my grandad. I also have a couple of Euphemia, found on the internet. Let me know if you've not seen them.

I look forward to hearing from you both, (and any other relatives viewing here).

Take care and best wishes.
Geoff