Author Topic: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican  (Read 39836 times)

Offline Sylviaann

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #9 on: Monday 15 September 08 17:09 BST (UK) »
To find old pictures of Leeds try this site http://www.leodis.net/

You might be lucky

Sylviaann
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Offline wood_gnome

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 23 September 08 10:34 BST (UK) »
Hi, I lived most of my life in Leeds. My Uncle Thomas Hunter married Ellen Crowther at Leeds registry office in 1938. Ellen Crowther's brother Robert use to have a Shooting Gallery on the Fairgrounds, just wondered if he was related to you.
Vickers, Hunter, Stewart, Allen,Taylor, Page, Galloway, Jowett, Croft, Stocks, Harrison, Furbank, Grey -
Yorkshire
Banks, Stewart, Allen, McHugh, Bluett, Casey - Lancashire                      
Hunter,Stewart, Armstrong - Cumbria

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Offline telnorm

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 23 September 08 12:16 BST (UK) »
Hi! I dont know of ellen or robert crowther being part of my family because my father died in 1943 and my mother remarried. my fathers name was william , and I know that he had a brother called frank but otherwise know very little of the rest of the family. my father lived at coldcotes drive in 1939( when he married my mother) which is on the gipton estate leeds.
I am sure that ben will be very very interested in the fairground connection of robert crowther.
                                                          regards TC

Offline benny9

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 23 September 08 20:09 BST (UK) »
Hi wood_gnome
   Could well be related, my greatgreatgrandad was a Robert Crowther bn 1862 to George and Sarah Ann Crowther, mar Ann Eliza Stewart in 1885 in Leeds. This Robert is down on his daughters (another Sarah Ann my greatgran) marriage cert as showman. I don't know about his other children I have not gone that way yet. My dad who grew up on the fairs for a few years at the start of his life says that he remembers visiting a Bob Crowther but he can't remember if he was any relation. My Crowthers were all from central Leeds from Mabgate, Stainburn sq, High st, Weaver sq, East st. I have not found them anywhere else yet apart from on showgrounds but then not too far from Leeds. It would be good to hear if you have any other info on your Crowthers and see if there is a connection. Hope this info helps you cheers BEN
Johnson, Crowther, Sykes showman and travellers 1800's onward of Leeds and surrounding area. Also Bunting, Bosomworth and Palliser

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 18 July 09 00:22 BST (UK) »
My ggg'dad Was a George Crowther From Leeds and in 1885 I have him in Stainburn sq working as Publican he later became a showman /traveler but I would like to know a bit about the area in Leeds. The area is St Peters sq, Lemon st, High st. This area is now mainly under Quarry hill flats but I would like to see if I can build up a picture of the area in his day. Cheers BEN

Dear Ben,
                George was born in 1827 and baptised on Feb.3rd at Birstall. His father Benjamin was born around 1790 and lived in Scholes near Cleckheaton. Ben took his family to Leeds in the 1840's. He and George were 'coal leaders', i.e. deliverers of coal.
Benjamin lib=ved at mabgate Fold, and george - when married - at New Church Place. Benjamin died in 1852, and is buried in an unmarked grave in beckett Street Cemetary. George then lived in Mabgate Fold, and became a traveller with a Fair - owning a 'swingboat'. He seems to have given this work to a son- Benjamin, who died in 1917, whilst he took over the pub called 'The Old House at Home'. He gave this up to run a lodging house, and died in 1894. (He is buried in Beckett Street as well, and has a gravestone which was still standing in 2006.)
              His spinster daughter Caroline took  over the lodging house until her death in 1913.
            George - like all his family - was illiterate, but made a will, leaving £117 to his children. I can give you more info if you want.
            Paul Crowther
 

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 18 July 09 00:41 BST (UK) »
hello ben,
re inscription for george and sarah, I got it from a disk " leeds & district burials" that I have which lists various burial grounds & some inscriptions. I am assuming that the grave must still be there for them to have obtained this info.I dont know if you have ever visited becketts st but 7 yrs ago when I visited the old part was so badly overgrown that we gave up looking.
thanks for confirming sarah ann,s maiden name. I had been going off on the wrong track on this.
very interesting to see that you have located george & sarah on 1851 census, I will now add that to my tree.
I did have caroline on the 1901 census and am also interested in who got the property when she died in 1913 aged 55 yrs, although east st was a pretty poor area and has always seemed to be. I actually went to school 5 mins walk from east st and weaver sq which was just around the corner and is where my my grandad  and grt grandad ( both william) were living in 1901.
I dont know if it is of interest to you but I have a copy of my grt grandads marriage cert dated 13th dec 1887 showing him residing in stainburn sq and listed as a brewer. george ( his dad) is also listed as a brewer.
hope that you do manage to get further info on george,
                                                                                                                   regards  Terry

Dear Terry,
                   William was my great grandfather as well. He is buried in Beckett Street in George's grave. The grave was still there in 2006, though only George is marked on the headstone.William's wife Margaret Jane (nee mackenzie) is buried separately in a communal grave with her name on it amongst about 5 or 6 others. I have exact locations for all the Crowther graves in the cemetary and copies of birth, death, and marriage certificates for all those in the William line that connects to me.
                 Caroline ran the Lodging House on East Street  until her death. The property was demolished around that time. If you stand at the side of the Palace pub and look towards East Street, it was around there.
                   I also know the deep ancestry of our Crowther forefathers via analysis of  my Y-chromosome (i.e. transmission on the father's line). More information is available if you want.
                   Best wishes,
                   Paul Crowther

Offline telnorm

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 18 July 09 13:06 BST (UK) »
Hi Paul, having decided yesterday to get back to my family history after a two months break, I invested in some credits for the 1911 census. Then this morning I find your messages. This is brilliant.
I would be delighted with any info whatsoever on the crowthers and I thank you for the info on Margaret jane who I could never find her death date or burial. I have just found Caroline on the 1911 census living with Elizabeth Johnson ( also a boarding house owner) and one of Bens johnsons.
The y-chromosome sounds intriguing and I loved to find out which of g,granddad lot you are from. great to hear from you, many regards Terry Crowther

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 18 July 09 21:55 BST (UK) »
Dear Terry,
                   Some births and deaths info.

Benjamin Crowther - born around 1790, Scholes/Birstall area. Died age aged 62, 8 Mabgate Fold, 27.3.1852. I know approximately where his grave in Beckett St. is.

George Crowther - born 1827, baptised feb.3rd at Birstall. married Sarah Ann Denison, Feb. 9th 1850, Leeds parish Church. He was originally a cloth dyer, but worked as a coal leader, then maybe as a dyer again, before running a 'swingboat' at travelling fairs. After he became a publican in the late 1870's, he then took over a lodging house at 7 East Street. In his will of 13.6.1892 he bequeaths his money and personal property to his children. Caroline is given special mention - 'I give and bequeath absolutely to my daughter Caroline for her own separate and sole use all Fixtures and Furnishings on or about the premises now occupied by me at Seven East Street, Leeds'...He seems to have turned the lodging house over to her, since his death certificate has his profession as a 'pattern dyer'. He died on 30.5.1894. His wife pre-deceased him on 25.6. 1884 (at 'Stainburn Street').  George had a lot of children, three of whom died in infancy.

William Crowther - George's son, born 19.10.1859 at 8 Mabgate Fold. He worked in the pub with his father, and by 1901 was a 'Carter'. He married Hannah Enoch on 12.8. 1885, but she died on 1.3.1886. He re-married to Margaret Jane Mackenzie on 13.12. 1887. Maggie was born 9.5.1862 at 17, Young Street, Aberdeen. By 1881, she was working as a 'woolen weaver' at Mirfield, living with her sister Euphemia, and younger brother John. Wiiliam died of cancer of the lower jaw on 29.5.1908. (This is not a common cancer, and may be connected to the fact that in the 1871 census he is listed as a 'matchmaker'. Matchmakers often smoothed the matches orally and many contracted this cancer - known colloquially as 'phossie jaw'.) Maggie Mackenzie died of pneumonia on 4.12.1911. She was a woman of such ample girth that, apparently, the coffin had to be lowered from the window of  her dwelling. Another family tale has it that her younger brother turned up athe funeral wearing a kilt and Scottish regalia, and was punched  by one of Willie's sons, on the grounds that he'd never cared about her whilst she was alive... She was buried separately from Willie, as he was interred in George's grave along with George's wife Sarah, Hannah Enoch, Annie Gallagher, and Benjamin Johnson. The grave was, therefore, officially classified as 'full'.

Willie and Maggie had at least 8 children. These included  Euphemia (born in 1890) - who looked after the young ones when both parents were dead. I remember meeting her at my Grandad Crowther's funeral in 1967. I also met another  of their children - yet another Benjamin. He lived in Beeston and was still alive in the 1980's, though I had no further contact with him. The youngest child, my grandad - Henry - was born on 25.10.1902, and died 12.12.1967. My cousin Gary Murphy did ALL  the research which I'm quoting from, and he was unable to find birth certificates for the other children - Benjamin (ibid), John, William, and George.( The other children were  Robert - born in 1897, and Mary Ann, born in 1900)

As for dwelling places. Mabgate Fold was demolished in the late nineteenth-century when the Hope Iron Foundry was extended. The extension took the form of a grand neo-classical building which is still standing. If you go into the yard there, there are  cobbles  probably left over from Mabgate Fold, and there is an incongruous building in the corner which may be a remnant of the Fold. The building adjoins the grim and filthy Lady Beck which is mainly covered, but you can still see it beneath Hope Street Bridge. This area was called the 'Leylands' and was infamous for its insanitary conditions. Disease was rife. Linsley Fold is gone, but part of New Church Lane  is recorded on the Leodis photo website, as are images of Wool Street, and Weavers Square. Stainburn Square/Street was demolished in the early 1930's. I know of no images of it.

When I was a boy, I remember that Grandad Crowther had photographs of Willie, and of Maggie on his wall. Alas, when he died, his wife seems to have thrown them away. I can't remember them with any accuracy now.
                I'll have to do another reply concerning the genetic ancestry.
                Best wishes,
                Paul

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 18 July 09 22:22 BST (UK) »
Dear Terry,
                  As for distant genetic ancestry, there is a fascinating tale to be told. The paternal line of descent transmits genetic markers - mutations that appear at a specific time in specific individuals, but which are then transmitted to all male descendants. These markers define what are called 'haplogroups'. Through these, one can determine the distant origins of one's ancestry. Almost all people in the British Isles are members of the haplogroup Rb1, (or, a minority) are of Scandinavian groups (whose designation I don't recall). What this shows is that most Brits are descended from people who took refuge in Iberia, or in the Balkans during the ice age. They emerged from Africa and came to Iberia,or from the Balkans to Scandinavia via the middle east.
           Our Crowther line, however, is completely different. Via Benjamin, George and Willie, I have inherited the haplogroup marker N1c1. Members of this group left Africa and went into Iran, then northern China, and then into Siberia - where the exact N1c1 marker arose about 10.000 years ago.(Native Siberians have it most). It then spread with Uralic speakers (i.e.languages related to Finnish) across northern Russia into Finland and the Baltic states. About 60% of Finns, and between a third and a half of Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians have it. It's especially common amongst the Saami people (i.e, Laplanders). What this means is that somewhere along the line our Uralic ancestors became involved with Vikings or Normans (Normans being Viking in origin) and came over with them. My guess is that we spring either from Saami connected with Norsemen, or from Courlanders (from Lithuania) who connected with Danes or Swedes.
      I know of one other Crowther (an American) who also is N1c1. His ancestors came from our areas - between Halifax, Leeds, and Bradford. There is a southern English Crowther I know of. His ancestors are from the only non-northen area of England where there is some concentration of Crowthers, namely Shropshire - but he's a Rb1 member. From all this I infer that the northern Crowthers are probably mainly of Uralic origin, whilst the southern ones aren't.
      Any way that's all for now - I have to  feed the reindeer.
      Best wishes,
      Paul