Author Topic: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?  (Read 4659 times)

Offline IgorStrav

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 21:42 BST (UK) »
Hello all, thank you so much for all your comments and restores and colourings, which are fantastic.  ;D

And thank you for pointing out the blooming obvious which is that the chairs and curtains match and the pictures were obviously taken at the same time!

These are my great grandfather and great grandmother, and are definitely the same people as in the earlier group I posted.  I know this definitely.

On the back of the individual man, who is indeed in police uniform, there is a handwritten inscription which says "John James Pay, on his retirement from the Metropolitan Police June 12th 1910 aftr 25 years service"

And on the back of the individual woman, it simply says "Victoria Adelaide Pay to her son Morris 1910".

So, if the pictures were taken at the same time, I think the date is firm at 1910 - I have other evidence of his date of retirement, and presumably the occasion would be important enough to have a photograph taken.  I know from my father (grandson of the people pictured) who was also the son of a policeman (the gormless looking boy at the front of the group photo), that there was a huge focus on the retirement date....................and the pension!!! ;)

Both John James and Victoria Adelaide were 45 years old in these pictures - ie 15 or so years older than the group photo with the children.  Victoria Adelaide died three years later.

I am fascinated by your comments about the necklace (or whatever it is), please have some more guesses!  Do you think the belt buckle is any more significant?

I don't know that Victoria Adelaide had any interests outside the family - she had 12 children, 3 of whom pre-deceased her - and had had her last child in January 1909, just 18 months ahead of this picture.  I think it's unlikely she was either a nurse or member of any organisation which would have given her an award.  Looking after the house - certainly not rich enough for servants - would have been enough.

Thank you all so much for your interest!

I only wish I still had the necklace.

Pay, Kent. 
Barham, Kent. 
Cork(e), Kent. 
Cooley, Kent.
Barwell, Rutland/Northants/Greenwich.
Cotterill, Derbys.
Van Steenhoven/Steenhoven/Hoven, Belgium/East London.
Burton, East London.
Barlow, East London
Wayling, East London
Wade, Greenwich/Brightlingsea, Essex.
Thorpe, Brightlingsea, Essex

Offline Rabbit B

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 22:15 BST (UK) »
Hi IgorStrav,

I think that the buckle and necklace are insignia of some kind.  My first thought was the Nurse SRN buckle, Matrons used to have a fancier one, my Gran was a Matron. They also had different hats/caps!

The medical profession, have a snake coiled round a staff though, I started to look it all up today and got waylaid.
Will have another go tomorrow!

I found the uniform interesting because I have policemen on both sides of my family!  I was surprised about that, but at least it explains my interest in NHW  ;D

Rabbit B   ;)
Conning/London
Wareham/Winchester
Hart/Cambridgeshire
Burns/Byrne/Liverpool and Ireland
Nibbs/London
Brealey/Staffordshire
Melbourn/Melbourne/Cambridgeshire
Hoyle/Liverpool
Relf/Sussex

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Offline PaulaToo

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 22:20 BST (UK) »
Being a copper's missus and the mother of a good brood, she might have been in the Temperance Movement...

But I'm thinking I'm sure I've seen a brooch like the top one, with the dangly bits on the points, in one of the Pre-Raphaelite paintings...

So perhaps it's a bit of 'arts and craft movement' decoration and nothing else.
Bartlett/Henley on Thames
Caponhurst/Buckinghamshire and?
Denchfield/North Marston/Bucks
Webb/Winchester
Mathias/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
John/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
Smith/Portsmouth/Portsea
Purchas/Bucks and?
Olliffe/Bucks

Offline IgorStrav

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 22:29 BST (UK) »
It's so hard to tell from a picture, but the tassels and brooches look like silver, don't they?  Quite something for a woman of this sort of social order.

Pay, Kent. 
Barham, Kent. 
Cork(e), Kent. 
Cooley, Kent.
Barwell, Rutland/Northants/Greenwich.
Cotterill, Derbys.
Van Steenhoven/Steenhoven/Hoven, Belgium/East London.
Burton, East London.
Barlow, East London
Wayling, East London
Wade, Greenwich/Brightlingsea, Essex.
Thorpe, Brightlingsea, Essex

Offline Rabbit B

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 22:41 BST (UK) »
IgorStrav

You can bet that they will be silver, they didn't use any other metal in those days to my knowledge.

They are too solid looking to be filigree, but that is another possibility.

Rabbit B  ;D
Conning/London
Wareham/Winchester
Hart/Cambridgeshire
Burns/Byrne/Liverpool and Ireland
Nibbs/London
Brealey/Staffordshire
Melbourn/Melbourne/Cambridgeshire
Hoyle/Liverpool
Relf/Sussex

Offline Forthefamily

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 23:30 BST (UK) »
PaulaToo,

I've seen something like the "necklace" somewhere else as well. I went through all my fashion books looking for jewelry of that period but nothing yet. Then I did a search on women's groups  :-\

Would the police department give her something to commemorate her husbands retirement  ???

mab
Census information is Crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Inishowen: Meenamullaghan (Big Hill), Foffenagh (Rock), Illies and area...mainly McCallion, Doherty, Bradley, Grant, Devlin and Lynch.
Kilmacrenan: Gortnacorrib....Bonner
Letterkenny: Bonner
Scotland: Bonar, Boner Bonner etc
Conwal: Kirkstown.....Toner
Derry City: Bonner, McGowan, McGilloway, McElwee, Bradley
Omagh: Bradley
Fanad Penninsular, Donegal.....McBride, Friel, Fielty

Offline IgorStrav

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 23:36 BST (UK) »
Mab 

I don't think she would have had anything from the Metropolitan Police - my grandfather was also a policeman, and I don't recall anything being mentioned as being given to my gran at his retirement.

At Paula's suggestion, I have emailed the picture to the Textiles and Fashion department at the V&A to see if I can get any comments from them, and will keep you posted.

It might also be worthwhile asking other members of my family.....you never know, one or other of them might say "oh yes, that's the..."

Or even better show the necklace to me because they still have it! (don't think that's likely, though)

Pay, Kent. 
Barham, Kent. 
Cork(e), Kent. 
Cooley, Kent.
Barwell, Rutland/Northants/Greenwich.
Cotterill, Derbys.
Van Steenhoven/Steenhoven/Hoven, Belgium/East London.
Burton, East London.
Barlow, East London
Wayling, East London
Wade, Greenwich/Brightlingsea, Essex.
Thorpe, Brightlingsea, Essex

Offline Forthefamily

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 09 September 08 23:41 BST (UK) »
Can't wait  ;D

mab
Census information is Crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Inishowen: Meenamullaghan (Big Hill), Foffenagh (Rock), Illies and area...mainly McCallion, Doherty, Bradley, Grant, Devlin and Lynch.
Kilmacrenan: Gortnacorrib....Bonner
Letterkenny: Bonner
Scotland: Bonar, Boner Bonner etc
Conwal: Kirkstown.....Toner
Derry City: Bonner, McGowan, McGilloway, McElwee, Bradley
Omagh: Bradley
Fanad Penninsular, Donegal.....McBride, Friel, Fielty

Offline Rabbit B

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Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 10 September 08 09:26 BST (UK) »
PaulaToo,

I've seen something like the "necklace" somewhere else as well. I went through all my fashion books looking for jewelry of that period but nothing yet. Then I did a search on women's groups  :-\

Would the police department give her something to commemorate her husbands retirement  ???

mab

Morning All,

I thought of that Mab,  but I think that it has something to do with the belt!  No time now to look it up but I was going to google insignia.

Back later!

Rabbit B  ;D
Conning/London
Wareham/Winchester
Hart/Cambridgeshire
Burns/Byrne/Liverpool and Ireland
Nibbs/London
Brealey/Staffordshire
Melbourn/Melbourne/Cambridgeshire
Hoyle/Liverpool
Relf/Sussex