Author Topic: Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?  (Read 5642 times)

Offline merilyn64todhunter

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Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?
« on: Sunday 05 October 08 11:53 BST (UK) »
My mother in law had a wonderful memory and could write out lists about all sorts of things. She has passed away now, but this list came into my hands today and I am wondering if anyone would like to take up the challenge to prove/disprove (or parts thereof). I had a look through and a few dates don't seem right...As I had a battle reading some of her handwriting I have had to guess at some words!
Alexander DOUGLAS Farmer at Blackhills, Moray (1775-1862)
son of: Alexander DOUGLAS Farmer Blackhills (1740-1811)
son of; Alexander DOUGLAS (1740-1811)
Son of Robert DOUGLAS (1701-) Steward to Sir Robert GORDON
son of: Robert DOUGLAS Burgess of Elgin 1705
son of: William DOUGLAS Bailie Dean of Guild , Elgin(1690-1702)
son of: Robert DOUGLAS Chamberlain to Gordon of Gordonstown (1602-)
Son of: James DOUGLAS of Shooting Acres Provost of Elgin
son of: Alexander DOUGLAS Provost of Elgin (1500-1547)
son of: James DOUGLAS of Pittendreich (1466-1500) married Eliz Hay
son of: Archibald DOUGLAS (Archibald the Grim) (1325-1400)
Son of: Sir James DOUGLAS (The Good Sir James)
son of Sir William de DOUGLAS (The Hardy) (1300-)
son of: Sir William de DOUGLAS (Longlegs) (1240-1274)
son of: Archibald DOUGLAS (1214-1240)
son of William de DOUGLAS - Brother in law of Frish??? of Moravia
Son of: DOUGLAS of Dallas
 
Merilyn

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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 10 October 08 16:37 BST (UK) »
a few dates don't seem right...

Indeed they don't

Quote
Alexander DOUGLAS Farmer at Blackhills, Moray (1775-1862)
son of: Alexander DOUGLAS Farmer Blackhills (1740-1811)
son of; Alexander DOUGLAS (1740-1811)

Alexander could not have had a son born the same year as he was

Quote
Son of Robert DOUGLAS (1701-) Steward to Sir Robert GORDON
son of: Robert DOUGLAS Burgess of Elgin 1705
son of: William DOUGLAS Bailie Dean of Guild , Elgin(1690-1702)

This William would have been just 21 when Robert, son of Robert, was born - a bit on the young side to be a grandfather?

Quote
son of: Robert DOUGLAS Chamberlain to Gordon of Gordonstown (1602-)

and from this it looks as if Robert was aged 88 when William was born in 1690?

Quote
Son of: James DOUGLAS of Shooting Acres Provost of Elgin
son of: Alexander DOUGLAS Provost of Elgin (1500-1547)
son of: James DOUGLAS of Pittendreich (1466-1500) married Eliz Hay
son of: Archibald DOUGLAS (Archibald the Grim) (1325-1400)

Archibald cannot have had a son when he was 141 years old.

Quote
Son of: Sir James DOUGLAS (The Good Sir James)
son of Sir William de DOUGLAS (The Hardy) (1300-)

If Good Sir James was the one who took the heart of Robert the Bruce on crusade, he cannot be the son of someone born in 1300, because RtB died in 1329.

Quote
son of: Sir William de DOUGLAS (Longlegs) (1240-1274)

Was Sir William the Hardy born 26 years after the death of his father Sir William Longlegs?

Quote
son of: Archibald DOUGLAS (1214-1240)
son of William de DOUGLAS - Brother in law of Frish??? of Moravia
Son of: DOUGLAS of Dallas

So quite a bit of apparent fairytale, I think.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

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Offline merilyn64todhunter

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Re: Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 13 October 08 01:29 BST (UK) »
Yes, I obviously do not have a mathematical brain! I thought the dates would have been difficult to get right as she wrote it out without a reference paper, but I thought someone might be familiar with the family line as far as the names go as they are so distinctive!!! I have found a couple on history sites but will start from the most recent and work back as you say, a lot to sort through!!
Thanks for your time, I just couldn't face sorting it all out and you have given me some hope!!

Offline WilliamD

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Re: Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 24 May 09 22:45 BST (UK) »
The Douglas family in Moray is an area of research with which I have been grappling over a period of time.  This is a really interesting 'tre' that you have posted.  here are some thoughts.

There is no clear, definitive, record of the very early Douglases, and different theories exist.

I have not come across a 'Douglas of Dallas' before, but it is reasonable to expect that there was a Douglas of Dallas, it being in Moray.  However, I do wonder if this might be a corruption of 'de Duglas', as early Douglases were known (see below).

Moravia is one of the historical countries in the east of the Czech Republic. The Frisch family of Moravia is fairly well documented.  See: http://genforum.genealogy.com/frisch/  However, this is more likely to be a reference to Freskin.

Freskin was a minor nobleman active in the reign of King David I of Scotland. His name appears only in a charter by King William to Freskin's son, William, granting Strathbrock in West Lothian and Duffus, Kintrae, and other lands in Moray, "which his father held in the time of King David". The name Freskin is Flemish,  and in the words of Geoffrey Barrow "it is virtually certain that Freskin belonged to a large group of Flemish settlers who came to Scotland in the middle decades of the 12th century and were chiefly to be found in West Lothian and the valley of the Clyde".  Freskin's land acquisition does not appear to be unique, and may have been part of a royal policy in the aftermath of the defeat of king ”engus of Moray.  For instance, on December 25, 1160, a charter was issued by King MŠel Coluim IV to Berowald the Fleming, who seems to have controlled Bo'ness in West Lothian, granting him the lands of Innes and "Nether Urquhart" [=Etherurecard] in the "province of Elgin"; notably, one of the three witnesses to the charter which granted "Berowald Flandrensis" these lands, was "Wilhelmus filius Frisgin", William, Freskin's son.  Freskin appears to be the progenitor of the "de Moravia" or "Murray" family who were lords of Duffus in the later 12th century and early 13th century and who rose to become the earls of Sutherland (southern Caithness), although it was not until the 13th century that we can be certain they took the surname "de Moravia".  Comparison between pre-1330 Douglas(L) and Moray(R) ArmsIt is also quite possible that the House of Douglas arose from the same stock. The first recorded Lord of Douglas, William de Douglas, is attested to in various charters of William the Lion. Five of his six sons became clerics, the eldest of which Bricius de Douglas became Bishop of Moray in 1203. Alexander, Henry and Hugh de Douglas all became Canons of Spynie. It appears that the youngest, Freskin de Douglas, remained in Lanarkshire as parson of the parish of Douglas, before being appointed Dean of Moray.

The similarity between the heraldry of the Morays and Douglases with the use of "Argent, on a chief azure, three stars of the field" for Douglas, and "Azure, three stars argent, two and one" for Moray, makes this compelling. Belief in the common descent of the Morays and Douglases was certainly extant in the early 1400s. Clan Sutherland also clain dscent from Freskin.

Despite the above, I also have a note that Freskin was the son of William de Duglas, 3rd lord of Douglas.  See: http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/freskin.htm  
To be a Douglas brother-in-law to Freskin, Freskin's sister would have had to have married a Douglas.  However, there is no record that I can find of Freskin's sisters.

William 'Longlegs' is the son of Archibald, d1240, and he was the father of William 'Le Hardi'.
Le Hardi's son was James 'The Good', and his son was Archibald 'The Grim'.  At this point we have a problem; Archibald 'the Grim' did have a son, James, but he became the 7th earl of Douglas, and he was born in 1371.  I can find litle reference to James Douglas of Pittendreich.

There was a James who was Provost of Elgin in 1488.  I am still trying to find out more about this branch of the Douglas family - here is where I have got to: 
http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/douglas_of_pittendreich.htm

I do not have any information about provosts of Elgin, but I have found a reference book which I  have not read: The Burgess Rolls of Banff and Elgin by Frances McDonnell. Published by Willow Bend Books, 65 E. Main St., Westminster MD 21157-5026. 1998. 52 pp. Softcover. $7.50 plus $3 p&h.

For further details of Douglases in Elgin, I recommend the book 'The Records of Elgin', which can be read here: http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsofelgin01elgiuoft/recordsofelgin01elgiuoft_djvu.txt  I will, in time, be extracting details of the Douglas family and including them in The Douglas Archives.

So, I mixture of fact and not quite so factual, I think.

Offline merilyn64todhunter

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Re: Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 25 May 09 10:40 BST (UK) »
Thankyou for your lengthy reply, you know a lot! Yes, I should have researched more before posting! I wish I knew the history how my grandmother in law came to know it and pass it on to her daughter, who as I said, seemed to be able write it down off the top off her head (no wonder there were errors! She also could reel off all the Melbourne Cup winners from 1936 to 2000!!) I have enjoyed looking at your references and just a another big thankyou. Merlyn

Offline corblimey

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Re: Douglas Family - Fairytale or Fact?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 24 January 17 02:56 GMT (UK) »
Robert Douglas, Head Gardener to Lord Gordon of Gordonstoun, is my ancestor.  I have a handwritten history of the Douglas family of Elgin and Dallas with a good deal of factual information.  If you would like to contact me via email, I can send you the pages of the book that relate to the Douglas family.  I tried adding it as an attachment but it didn't work.