Author Topic: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please  (Read 3489 times)

Offline ali607

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • GG Grandad John Collier 'The Contratenor Singer'
    • View Profile
WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« on: Tuesday 28 October 08 11:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I have just received my estranged grandads royal navy service records but I don't know what a fair few of the abbreviations mean. I have no experience with this kind of record - can anyone help?!

1) First of all, what is a Victual record - as in 'Pay and Victual record'

2) Under Able Seaman it says HSD?

3) It says he was released in Class A - what's this?

4) Under his trade or occupation it states 'shop boy' - was this before he joined up or what he did whilst in Navy...I know for sure that he ended up being a dental mechanic.

5) In the list of ships that he served on - some have a second ship in brackets - is this a ship which he was lent by?

6) Under rating it says: Ord. Smn.?

7) Rating: S.D HSD (DEMS)?

8) Under badges it looks like S1 (the colum is headed G.D or R...can someone explain this please?

9) What does non-substantive mean...this table has his rating entered in it?
10) Any idea what a $ sign means - its not used in context of money...

10) the abbreviation F.E is entered under the date on the personal description table....Any ides

Many thanks for any suggestions!
Alison
Surname interests:
Salter, Fulford, Woodcock, Finney, Tissington, Driscoll, Shea, Maxfield, Collier, Hughes, Williams, Petty, Pearson, Prescott, Baldwin,

Area interests:
West Riding Yorkshire: Rotherham, Hemsworth, Darfield, Sheffield
Worcestershire/Staffordshire: Oldbury, West Bromwich, Halesowen, White Heath
Lancashire: Wigan, Aspull,
Nottinghamshire: Worksop
erbyshire:alfreton, ironville, codnor

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline custard_pot

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 13:09 GMT (UK) »
Alison I can answer a couple of your queries

3) I think this means his health was class a - usually this is done on starting in forces and at release.

4) Shop Boy would be his job before he joined

6) means Ordinary Seaman

Hope this helps

Christine
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Smith, Warwickshire
Young, Leamington /Whitnash / Warwickshire
Somerfield / Bloxwich Staffordshire
Summerfield, Plymouth Devon
Jeffery, Dorset / Plymouth / Devon
Bouskill, Bagshaw, Nottinghamshire/ Barnsley / South yorkshire /
Gent, Blackburn, Wales Yorkshire / Nottingham / Rotherham / Barnsley / South yorkshire

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline neil1821

  • I am sorry but my email address is no longer working
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,887
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 13:21 GMT (UK) »
Can you attach the record itself (if it's one you've downloaded from TNA)?
Some of these it would help if we saw in context on the original.

Name interests: Boulton, Murrell, Lock, Croxton, Skinner, Blewett, Tonkin, Trathen.
Military History & Medals

Offline neil1821

  • I am sorry but my email address is no longer working
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,887
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 13:32 GMT (UK) »
2) Higher Submarine Detection ?

3) Is this at the end of his record? Could be released to class A of the Royal Fleet Reserve (though I forget exactly what that means)

4) yep, occupation before he joined

5) can you tell us what they are?

6) Yep, Ordinary Seaman

7) HSD see above. DEMS = Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships

9) non-substantive rank is his trade or specialty if you like. For example, leading seaman, leading stoker, leading telegraphist, leading cook, leading signalman etc are all the same rank but different non-substantive ranks.
Name interests: Boulton, Murrell, Lock, Croxton, Skinner, Blewett, Tonkin, Trathen.
Military History & Medals

Offline kyt

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 895
  • www.cfww2.com Commonwealth Forces of WW2
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 13:36 GMT (UK) »
SD = submarine detector (Someone who worked on ASDIC anti-submarine system)
HSD = higher submarine detector (the next grade up - is usually the senior member of the ASDIC team)

DEMS = Defence Equipped Merchant Ships (unusual to find an ASDIC operator on such a ship)

K

EDIT Neil beat me to it

Offline ali607

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • GG Grandad John Collier 'The Contratenor Singer'
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 14:40 GMT (UK) »
thanks for all your answers!

some of the ships with another ship in brackets are as follows:

osprey (wolfhound)
Vernon (Whirlwind)
Pembroke 4 (Florentine)
Pembroke 4 (mendip)

i will try to post image after iv had my tea!

many thanks
Alison
Surname interests:
Salter, Fulford, Woodcock, Finney, Tissington, Driscoll, Shea, Maxfield, Collier, Hughes, Williams, Petty, Pearson, Prescott, Baldwin,

Area interests:
West Riding Yorkshire: Rotherham, Hemsworth, Darfield, Sheffield
Worcestershire/Staffordshire: Oldbury, West Bromwich, Halesowen, White Heath
Lancashire: Wigan, Aspull,
Nottinghamshire: Worksop
erbyshire:alfreton, ironville, codnor

Offline kyt

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 895
  • www.cfww2.com Commonwealth Forces of WW2
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 28 October 08 15:54 GMT (UK) »
Osprey, Vernon and Pembroke 4 were shore establishments. The names i brackets were destroyers, except Florentine, which I can't find.

Destroyers provided anti-sub cover, so fits with an ASDIC operator. Seems likely the  shore establishments named were home bases for th ships


Offline MAITLAND_Finlays

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 5
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 14 October 18 01:18 BST (UK) »
Hi, Did you ever solve the Badges G.D or R issue?

I had some help from facebook forum (so thought I'd add detail....)

The G badge is a good conduct stripe (G= Good, D= detention R=Run

Other odd terms terms clarrified:
TB  meaning Training Battallion
SC ships company
DD Discharged Dead

Offline medpat

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: WW2 Navy records: abbreviations help please
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 14 October 18 08:06 BST (UK) »
In the RAF substantive means you are paid for your rank, un or non substantive means you have been given the rank but are not yet paid for that rank. It's the difference between permanent and temporary rank.

It's sometimes used when someone needs authority but is not due a promotion.e.g. a newly trained policeman in the RAF would be a corporal but only paid as a leading aircraftman and would need to be a senior aircraftman before he could attain the rank of corporal and be paid for the rank. A policeman needs authority so he has the authority of a corporal.

Your grandfather may have been the senior or most capable person in his dept. and it needed someone with authority to manage the dept. therefore he was given a temporary higher rank.
Lloyd, Paddock, Cooper, Morris, Darby, Rigby, Platt, Armstrong. All based in West Midlands

GEDmatch M157477