HARRIS (Essex) Family Bible,

[smudwhisk]

Coggeshall

8 Oct 1871
John Harris 32 yrs single man labourer of this parish son of Joseph Turner labourer
Emma Jepp 23 yrs single woman of this parish dau of John Jepp, carpenter
he signed, she made her mark
witnesses James Webb, Eliza Turner, both made their mark

I cannot find the 20 Jul 1844 marriage findem quotes in either the original register on SEAX nor in the transcripts on the Coggeshall Museum website.  Page 45 of the register, entry 89 is a marriage on 28 Jun 1844 and entry 90 is Sept 1844.  Neither Eliza Harris nor Lucy Turner Harris marry in the parish church.  They either married in a different parish or a non-conformist chapel (which was possible post Jul 1837) or the local Register Office.

Looks like John Harris was Emma Harris' son born before the marriage.  Whether he was Joseph's son though is subject to debate.  John's birth would appear to have not been registered.  The birth Rachel refers to is for a John Turner born Sept qtr 1839 Witham Registration District, so not necessarily in Coggeshall.  Chances are if he was baptised, it was probably in a non-conformist chapel.  Post 1837 non-conformist registers aren't available on SEAX yet.

1841 Census
Stoneham Street, Great Coggeshall
Amelia Harris, 60 yrs, charwoman, born in county
Emma Harris, 22 yrs, tambourer?, born in county
Jno Harris, 2 yrs, born in county

Emma Harris was Samuel and Amelia's daughter, see my reply (no. 22) on this thread from January this year - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673531.msg5186734#msg5186734

[smudwhisk]

Coggeshall
7 Mar 1841
Samuel and John base born sons of Joseph Turner and Emma Harris of Great Coggeshall, labourer

Samuel must have died as doesn't appear on the 1841 Census with Emma.

No dates of birth on either baptism but that has to be John because he's with Emma and grandmother Amelia on the 1841 Census.  The vicar wasn't averse to baptising illegitimate children as there are a lot of illegitimate children baptised there at that time.

So John was baptised late and was Joseph Turner's son, although it's strange that he didn't adopt the Turner surname when they married.

I doubt very much the 1839 John Turner birth registration is John Harris, there is no sign of one for Samuel under Harris or Turner so that John Turner is probably another in the area.  Only purchasing the birth certificate would confirm this.

[smudwhisk]

Amelia and Samuel were both at the battle of Waterloo 1815 with their 3 oldest children Joseph, Samuel and John.

Rachel you've stated on your ancestry tree that the above statement is listed on Amelia's burial.  The remark is actually on the transcript from Coggeshall Museum, it does not appear in the original burial register. 

An online pay per view index for the Waterloo Medal Roll shows no Samuel Harris I'm afraid.

Probably worth someone asking them where the remark came from, and their remark only says three children and doesn't name them.

[smudwhisk]

Coggeshall
23 Jul 1841
Samuel Harris of Stoneham Street, 6 months old, buried

Strange he's not on the 1841 Census because the burial is after the date it was taken.

[smudwhisk]

Findem

Can I make a suggestion possibly re your Joseph Harris?  Unless you've already found all the Harris entries for bapt/marriage/burials for Coggeshall, I'd suggest doing this and then have a look at any Harris bridegrooms who married around 1805.  Then check to see if any of the bride's had a child before the marriage because if you find a Joseph around the right time, he could be yours and assumed his step father's name.

While it's possible Joseph could have been non-conformist and not been baptised, he doesn't appear to have had a son Samuel or daughter Amelia, which you would have thought he may have if they were his parents.  Personally I doubt he's their son but you never know.

For now, it's probably worth spending some pounds (or aussie dollars in your case ) and have a look again at the original registers on SEAX.  Something may come to light.  It may even be a case of a marriage later than 1805.  It's worth a try as you don't really have any other leads.  I don't doubt your Joseph is probably related to the other Harris families in the parish somehow but to date there is no obvious Joseph to any of them.

One of my ancestors was one of five illegitimate children born to the same mother in Northamptonshire, the latter three have a "reputed" father's name on the baptism but all three surviving children, including my ancestor, assumed the aforementioned father's name even though there is no actual evidence he was my ancestor's father and their mother never married.

[Rachel Williams]

Excellent research and contributions as usual Smudwhisk

I strongly suspect that John Turner Harris was born out of wedlock.

John Turner Harris has a sister with a similar name usage born January 1843

Name:   Lucy Turner Harris
Date of Registration:   Jan-Feb-Mar 1843
Registration district:   Witham
Inferred County:   Essex
Volume:   12
Page:   323

and the marriage for Joseph Turner and Emma Harris post-dates their births at March 1844:

Name:   Emma Harris
Date of Registration:   Jul-Aug-Sep 1844
Registration district:   Witham
Inferred County:   Essex
Volume Number:   12
Page Number:   443
Records on Page:   
Name
Emma Harris
Joseph Turner

It looks like the marriage took place at the registrars office at Witham.

 As to Samuel Harris Sr. and Amelia at Waterloo we did find a few references of Samuel Harris' with the English army as foot soldiers. The Regiments were:

6th Regiment of Foot (Warwickshire)
68th Regiment of Foot (Durham)
33rd Regiment of Foot (West Riding)
1st Battalion 4th Foot (listed as Saml Harris)
7th Queens Own Hussars (listed as Saml Harris)

I've changed the family tree reference to point to Coggeshall Museum as the source for the Amelia and 3 children at Waterloo comment

And from the online Museum Burial Records--- re: Samuel Sr' burial and by implication his death :
1841 Apr 7 Harris Samuel 57 GC Stoneham Street

Thanking you for your help

Rachel (in Canada)


 

[findem]

Hi Smudwisk,

Many thanks for your helpful contributions they are very much appreciated.

Regarding your comment " Unless you've already found all the Harris entries for bapt/marriage/burials for Coggeshall, I'd suggest doing this and then have a look at any Harris bridegrooms who married around 1805."

I have already done so and turned up three possibles which I'll copy and paste plus the relevant thoughts I had from my research notes:-
1)   26 Dec 1780 George Harris & Ann Richold.
2)   12 Sep 1795 Robert Harris & Sarah Snellock, Robert noted as being “of Little Coxal”.
3)   24 Dec 1806 Samuel Harris & Amelia Windall, Samuel noted as being “of Little Coggeshall”.

Note Coggeshall was sometimes called Coxal by local people.

Of the three marriages I favour Robert and Sarah as parents of Joseph because of the date but George and Ann cannot be ignored.  Nor can Samuel and Amelia be dismissed as parents of Joseph but 1806 being close to the date when Joseph thinks he was born I would have expected the marriage of Samuel and Amelia to be by licence, however often the year of birth in a census is not accurate so a licence might not have been needed.

Also note that it is possible that George’s marriage to Ann Richold may have been his second marriage, although in the marriage entry for George and Ann it did not state George was a widow, the statement may have been inadvertently omitted.  A George Harris married Bridget Rose by banns 26 Dec 1771 at Coggeshall.

What I will now do is to check the PRs for Coggeshall and Coggeshall congregationalfrom 1780 to somewhere in the 1800s and compare the names of any Harris children found with the names Joseph and Lucy used for their children.  Joseph and Lucy did name a child Sarah but Sarah being quite a common name it cannot be considered proof on its own.

18/1/2014 I have now searched Coggeshall C of E and Congregational registers and the baptism of Joseph Harris c 1806/7/9 is not in those registers.

Since composing the above notes I have of late leaned more towards Samuel and Amelia.

Please fell free to apply critique to any of the above.

I have two Harris families:-
1) Joseph Harris (c1806) and his wife Lucy Turner.
2) Joseph Harris (1831) and his wife Eliza Dalton.

As far as I know neither of those two families named a son George, Robert or Samuel, rotten blighters.

By the way Rachel I didn't put those three marriages on this topic because having found them and written them up way back and last saw the notes in January this year they had slipped my memory.  It was Smudwisk's comments about checking for Harris marriages that brought them to mind, sorry about that.

 

[findem]

Well Smudwisk thanks again, you've now solved the riddle (in my mind) of does John Turner Harris belong in the family of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner or not, thanks to your efforts definitely not, I will now remove him from that family but add a note about him for future reference, it's obvious that way back I when got his marriage to Emma Harris it came from someone else rather than my research and I obviously didn't follow it up and check it myself as I should have.

By the way I am already in contact with a lady from the Coggeshall Museum regarding various Coggeshall related matters, I'll email her to check out what she has on Samuel and Amelia's army exploits.

[findem]

Well Smudwisk thanks again, you've now solved the riddle (in my mind) of does John Turner Harris belong in the family of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner or not, thanks to your efforts definitely not, I will now remove him from that family but add a note about him for future reference, it's obvious that way back I when got his marriage to Emma Harris it came from someone else rather than my research and I obviously didn't follow it up and check it myself as I should have.

I think I need a recheck of Caroline Turner Harris bap 14 Jul 1839 and Lucy Turner Harris 16 Apr 1843 to ensure they do belong to Joseph and Lucy Harris, John Turner Harris has me wondering if I slipped up with those two ladies.  For good measure I'd better also have a recheck of Eliza Harris (no Turner middle name) born between Caroline and Lucy, Eliza was baptised  7 Mar 1841, all three at Coggeshall.

By the way I am already in contact with a lady from the Coggeshall Museum regarding various Coggeshall related matters, I'll email her to check out what she has on Samuel and Amelia's army exploits.