Author Topic: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick  (Read 20908 times)

Offline rlg

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 20 October 10 16:11 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your very quick replies.

to Robbiesmum/Bridget:

Looking through the MIs and the photos, I found Mary and James at Vol 3 #165, but Alexander and Agnes weren't there.  After looking through them all, I discovered that you hade a reference to the specific Photos at the bottom of each of your MIs.  Browsing through the photos, I saw numerous other relevant names, so these MIs and photos are clearly going to be a valuable resource.  Thanks for making them available.

to Margaret55:

Thank you too.  I guess that I wasn't clear enough.  My problem wasn't whether Alexander and Agnes had a son James.  He's clearly there with them in 1841/1851/1861 and I found his birth in Eskdalemuir.  I do appreciate the info that he was with them when they died.  The difficulty was with the 1871/1881 entries which differ from the others in some ways but clearly match the MIs.  I wanted to be sure that it was the SAME James Graham in both situations and that I wasn't following the wrong one after 1871.  James Graham is such a common name that I have become cautious when significant details change from one census to another.  I also have lots of William Grahams and John Grahams and have to be very careful with them.  Sometimes people also have parents or grandparents who have passed down information/recollections/records, etc which help establish the correct lineage.

Add on:

While looking at the MIs, I happened across Thomas Hope Graham who also is connected to Gilnockie.  While checking the censuses, I saw that he also changed from being a coal miner to game keeper.  Thomas is a younger brother of James by 18 years.  (This was like icing on the cake after seeing how well James' children followed the Scottish naming pattern.)  I guess he was following in his older brother's footsteps.  I can only assume that whoever was home on census day when the enumerator came around in 1871 and 1881 erroneously reported James' birthplace as Canonbie instead of Eskdalemuir.

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline rlg

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 20 October 10 16:55 BST (UK) »
I am hitting a wall in my research and wonder if anyone has further information.  My problems revolve around WILLIAM GRAHAM and AGNES BYERS. 

I can find Agnes' birth in 1842 to George Byers who married Grisil Johnston (both events in Westerkirk).  I can find the births her of children George G (1775) and Sarah G (1777), both in Westerkirk.  I have the 1855 death info provided by Helen Graham (George's daughter from Bentpath) which also identifies James Graham (1771) as the son of William and Agnes G.

I know that James married Isabel Borthwick, George married Peggy Rieve and Sarah married Peter Byars/Byers -- all in Westerkirk -- and I have been following their descendents. 

Where does James come from?  I have discounted the connection to a James Graham from Torthorwald and his siblings (whose father was a William Graham) because I can't find any sign that they had anything to do with Westerkirk or the surrounding parishes (births, marriages or censuses) while James, George and Sarah do.  I have concluded that James, George and Sarah are the only verifiable children for William and Agnes.

I am clinging to the belief that the James in Westerkirk was the one baptized in Hutton and Corrie in Mar 1771.  When I checked those PRs, I got no other children there (maybe bacause the recording of BMDs stopped after 1771 and only resumed in the 1800's) for William. 

Can ANYONE confirm the James -- Hutton and Corrie connection?  The 1855 information seems to suggest a Torthowald connection.  Does anyone have any other children for William and Agnes?

As for WILLIAM GRAHAM, where did he come from?  I can't even find his marriage to Agnes.  Was it perhaps an irregular marriage which missed getting recorded?  (James and Isabella's in 1792 was irregular and they were fined by the church for it, but it was recorded by the church.)  William is like a phantom to me -- appearing only as a father with no verifiable info on him to this point.

RLG

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline rlg

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 20 October 10 17:06 BST (UK) »
OOPS.  re WILLIAM GRAHAM and AGNES BYERS, there IS another child listed in Westerkirk for William Graham.  It is John Graham born 28 May 1784 and baptized 30 May 1784.  I can't find anything further about him.  He is close enough to Sarah (1777)to have been their child too.

Any ideas?

RLG

Wul

  • Guest
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 21 October 10 10:07 BST (UK) »
OOPS.  re WILLIAM GRAHAM and AGNES BYERS, there IS another child listed in Westerkirk for William Graham.  It is John Graham born 28 May 1784 and baptized 30 May 1784.  I can't find anything further about him.  He is close enough to Sarah (1777)to have been their child too.

Any ideas?

RLG

My Graham family is from Westerkirk at the same time your family is and may well be related from previous generations, have you been to the cemetery at Bentpath or have the MI's for it?


Wul

  • Guest
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 21 October 10 10:10 BST (UK) »
Some more Graham monuments, none of these four are my Graham line.

My Graham line Archibald, John and Grisel are near the Johnstone mausoleum and information is on my website if you want a look.

Wul

p.s. sorry about the brightness of the pictures, I went too late in the day and digital camera's struggle with very strong light!


Offline margaret55

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 21 October 10 13:29 BST (UK) »
I think they must be the same Grahams as mine. my Alexander was from Westerkirk i dont have the Bentpath memorials nor have i been there.
My alexanders daughter Joan Graham 18-11-1833  1920 married David Murray 1841-1907 one of their children Mary Jane Murray 14-11-1863   19-01-1915 married Peter Laidlaw 24-08-1857  30-03-1936 their daughter Elizabeth Honeyman Laidlaw 23-09-1895  23-07-1919 married Alexander Little 17-11-1895 nov 1964  i am a descendant from them.
margaret55

Offline rlg

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #33 on: Thursday 21 October 10 14:53 BST (UK) »
to wul graham

The people in the 2 pictures of the one tombstone are relatives.  William Graham (1806-1895) is the eldest son of George Graham (1775) and the others mentioned are some of his family members.  This George is the brother of my direct ancestor James (1771-1855) who married Isabella Borthwick.  Thus, both George and James are sons of William Graham and Agnes Byers, while the William on the stone is a grandson.  (There is also a Sarah Graham who is a sister to James and George.  There may also be a younger brother John 1884 as I mentioned in my OOPS memo.  I welcome any further intelligence about him in the hope of verifying or rejecting him.)

The Agnes Graham who married Adam Edgar is a closer relative.  She is a daughter of James Graham (1771-1855) and a younger sister to my gg grandfather William Graham (1804-1880) who emigrated to Canada with his wife Hannah Bell and their childrensomewhere around 1853.  Obviously this William (1804-1880) is also a son of James.

The third inscription I am unable to read, so I can't comment.

To the best of my knowledge at this point, we are not related.

No, I have never been to Scotland, but my wife and I hope to rectify this within a couple of years.  I do have the Westerkirk MIs.  You forwarded them to a cousin of mine last year and he forwarded them to me.  They have proven very useful indeed.  Thank you.

to Margaret55

We are definitely related.  Your Alexander (1809-1873) is a younger sibling of my William Graham (1804-1880) who came to Canada as was Agnes who married Adam Edgar in wulgraham's picture.  All three (William, Agnes and Alexander) were children of James (1771-1855).  (I'm guessing that the last picture wulgraham took might be his tombstone, but I can't see it well enough.)  There are two other siblings who lived -- John 1799 who married Helen Thomson and Isbel 1797 who married Thomas Hope.  I also believe that there were 3 more sibling -- one John and two Williams -- who died early in life.

to both

I was suggesting that the James Graham (1771-1855) might be the one baptized in Hutton and Corrie to William Graham.  The death entry in 1855, though, suggests suggests some connection to Tundergarth through a place called Lambhill.  The statement to this effect was made by his neice Helen Graham who we have deduced is his younger brother George's daughter, a younger sister of the William in your first photograph.

I can't find any information on the birth of William Graham (James, George and Sarah's father), his marriage to Agnes Byers or the deaths of William and Agnes.  The are no Westerkirk MIs for them or burial entries to the best of my knowledge.  His wife Agnes Byers was born in 1742, so I'm guessing that William was probably born about 1740.  He may have been an Ag Lab like his sons James and George and so may have been transient for part of his life.  Even if James was born in Hutton and Corrie, it doesn't mean his father William was born or even firmly established there.

wul, what do you know about the parents of your Archibald Graham?  They seem to be contemporaries of James, George and Sarah in Westerkirk.  Perhaps there is a connection after all.  I won't bet on it though because there are Grahams by the bushel everywhere in Dumfries!

RLG

Wul

  • Guest
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #34 on: Thursday 21 October 10 19:00 BST (UK) »
wul, what do you know about the parents of your Archibald Graham?  They seem to be contemporaries of James, George and Sarah in Westerkirk.  Perhaps there is a connection after all.  I won't bet on it though because there are Grahams by the bushel everywhere in Dumfries!
RLG

Archibald Graham's father was a John Graham a miller from Milntown, Langholm, Dumfriesshire born in 1717 and died in Langholm Mill, 01/08/1799 and mother Grizel Little born in 1721 Milntown, Langholm Mill, Dumfrieshire died in Langholm Mill, 18/10/1757 and grandparents  John Graham also a miller from Milntown, Langholm, Dumfriesshire born 1671 Milntown, Langholm, Dumfriesshire died 11/11/1729 Langholm Mill, Langholm, Dumfriesshire and Marion Little from Langholm born 1684 unknown death date.

This link will get you the birth cert for Archibald as I don't think I am allowed to display it here?

http://www.wulgraham.co.uk/graham_docs/1750.BC.Archibald.Graham.jpg


Wul

Offline rlg

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Canonbie - Graham/Tidman/Beattie/Borthwick
« Reply #35 on: Friday 22 October 10 21:22 BST (UK) »
About Alexander Graham and Agnes Tidman

To margaret55

I am having some difficulty with Joan Graham's birthdate of 18 Nov 1833.  The next child down, Robert, has a christening date of 29 Jun 1834, but the previous child, James,  has a birthdate of 6 Jun 1830.  Could the birthyear possibly be in 1832 or much earlier in 1833?

Thank you for the info about Joan,  It tied up one of my loose ends.

To anyone: 

I now have info on what happened to 10 children -- James 1830, Joan 1832/3, Robert 1834, Alexander 1836, Mary 1841, William 1842, William 1844, Jane 1846, Thomas Hope 1848 and Agnes 1851.

Do you have any info about what happened to any of the other 3? -- Elizabeth 1826 (born Linton), Isabella 1839 and John 1855.  All are such common Scottish names that I couldn't uniquely identify them after they leave home.

I DO see John with his sister Agnes Armstrong in 1881.  I MIGHT be seeing him in 1891 -- age 33, coachman in Auchenrick, Canonbie with wife Nancy (From England) and son Robert, 2. (can anyone comfirm or reject?)  I lose him completely in 1901.

I understand some people show them with 14 children, not 13.  Have I missed anyone?

rlg