My Hughes & Griffiths ancestors from Nantmor

[EmyrBorth]

Hi
I've some information I need to send you by PM. Some concerns living persons and some involves sorting out what is relevent to your enquiry. I post here what might be of interest to other people as well as yourself. There is quite a lot of information at the Archives in Caernarfon re Peniel C.M. chapel in Nantmor, e.g skimpy baptism information for late 1830s to mid 1840s and fuller info recorded in a proper register from then on, and list of people paying for pews.
There is an undated record showing Daniel Hughes, Hafod y Llyn, paying for a pew, and records  of him paying from 1847 onwards. This might account for lack of info in the Church Parish registers. People who left the church for chapel very often continued to be buried in church cemetries; but I'm told that some clergy did not record these burials in the Register.
I've been tracing a family from Buarthau, Nantmor, which I suspect I'm related to. This is in the same District of Beddgelert in the Census records, as Hafod y Llyn Uchaf. The contact I had in the area is from Hafod y Llyn Isaf, by the way. I have recorded the inhabitants of Hafod y Llyn Uchaf, don't include servants here:
1841  Daniel Hughes (40)/Jane (30)/Robert (30)/Catherine (4)/Robert (1)
1851  Daniel Hughes (49)/Jane (44)/Robert ?(I've been careless recording here !)/Catherine/Robert/Elizabeth (9)/Edward (7)/Richard (5)/Griffith(1).
1861  Daniel (60)/Jane(54)/Catherine(24)/Elizabeth(19)/Richard(15)/Griffith(12)
1871  Robert Hughes (31)/Ann (28)/John (5)/Robert(3)/Jane(under 1 month?)
There has been a change in 1871. I would assume that Robert Hughes is the son that is 1 year old in 1841.

We now move to Bryntirion which seems to have grown from 5 to 9 houses. At first it seems to be a terrace, but in one description of the Census District it is described as a Hamlet in the Township of Nantmor.
1871  9 Bryntirion.  Daniel Hughes(69)/Jane(64)/Elizabeth(29)/Edward(27)/Richard(26)Griffith(21)/Daniel(4)-Grandson.
Jane's age has jumped from 30 in 1841 to 44 in 1851, then gone up 10 years every census. The latter age makes more sense if Jane was baptised in 1806.

I seem to have forgotten to record the Hafod y Llyn Uchaf residents in 1881 will check it out. I've also recorded the date 1881 against what seems to be 1891 records; will get back to you about this.
It would appear that Robert Hughes etc are in H y Ll Uchaf in 1891; Jane Hughes(85) is living in Peniel Terace with a grandson, Daniel aged 24 (see 1871 Census) (so I assume Daniel Snr. has died).
Also there seems to be lots of the Hughes family living in Nantmor in 1891. Chances are that you've still got lots of relatives living in the area ! I'll send details by PM as the info needs sorting out. I also have info that Griffiths family have been living in H y Ll Uchaf from I don't know what date, up to about 30 years ago. I don't know if they're the same family as Daniel Hughes's wife. I have a contact name and telephone number.
Emyr

[robdavies66]

Hello again Emyr.
I've an Ancestery UK subscription & thus have access to all the 1841 - 1901 Census records
Note:- I maintain my Rob Davies' Family Tree on Ancestry, This can be viewed by any member of Ancestry whether paying a membership subscription or not.

I confirm the Daniel Hughes living at Hafod y Llyn with his family in 1841, 1851 & 1861 and at Bryntirion in 1871 is my 2xg gf. Daniel died on 4 May 1876 at Byrntirion.
I also confirm the Robert Hughes living at Hafod y Llyn in 1871, 1881 & 1891 was Daniel's eldest son, baptsised on 18 Apr 1840. Robert's death was registered in 1899 Q1.
Living at Hafod y Llyn in 1901 is Robert's wdiw Ann & one of her sons, Robert.

The g/son Daniel living at Bryntirion in 1871, at Peniel Terrace in 1881 (single) & 1891 (married) and in Ffestiniog in 1901 was the out of wedlock son, born on 6 Oct 1866, of Daniel's eldest child, Catherine. Daniel Jnr's birth certifcate has Father left blank.

I think it is probable (and almost certain) that every Hughes shown living at Nantmor in 1891 (& 1901) is a relative of mine.

My gm's sister Ann(ie) married Eliezer Cethin Jones on 18 Dec 1903 . They were living at Byrntirion in 1911 and  their twins Arthur & Llewelyn were born at Bryntirion on 2 Dec 1917.

I look forward to receiving your PM
Best regards, Rob
email = rob.davies66@virgin.net
Phone = 01329 286615

[EmyrBorth]

Hi
These Parish Register entries might be of interest to you:
Death 21/05/1822 Richard Hughes, Hafod y Llyn, aged 17.
Marriage 03/12/1756 David Hughes, widower and Elizabeth Jones, spinster.
Marriage 12/07/1800 Edward Hughes and Catherine Williams, widow.

I'm still searching various information sources for Beddgelert area. Will make a note of anything which might be of interest to you.
EmyrBorth

[robdavies66]

Hello Emyr. 
Happy New Year.
You've given me a great start for 2010 with these new records but like Oliver Twist, I'm asking for More!!

The death on 21 May 1822 of Richard Hughes of Hafod y Llyn ties in with his baptism on 22 Mar 1805 that you advised on 28 Nov.
My first extra question -- was his date of burial shown?

In addition to Richard, you've advised on 12 Nov the baptism of Daniel (25 May 1801), on 16 Nov that of Robert (26 Sep 1809) & on 28 Nov that of William (31 May 1807) -- in all four cases the parents being Edward Hughes & his wife Catherine/Cath.
I'm thus as sure as I can be, that the wedding between Edward Hughes & Catherine Williams, widow on 3 Dec 1879 is that of my 3xg g/parents.
As my 3xg gm was a widow, this still leaves open what her maiden surname was -- and, of course, she could have been born, married & lived with her first husband either in/ near to Nantmor or anywhere in the surrounding area.
My second extra question -- was there any more information shown about Edward & Catherine on the registration record?

In the 1841 Wales Census there is a total of 13 Hughes living in Nantmore, in just four Households:-
1) At Hafod Llyn, my 2xg g/parents Daniel Hughes & his wife Jane, their first two children & Daniel's brother Robert.
2) At Sygun Issa (or Isfa?), Dorothy Hughes, a Pauper aged 35 & so probably a widow, with what I'm sure are her four children
3) At Caccan of the Ty Hen (my best guess), John Hughes a Farmer aged 25 with his wife Catherine
4) At Sygun anol?, William Hughes, a Miner, Copper Mine aged 25 living with the family of John & Gaynor Williams

I'm moving into pure speculation but if Dorothy was the widow of Daniel's brother William (he would have been 34 at the time of the 1841 Census) it only leaves two 'unaccounted for' Hughes, who could have been children of sibling(s) of Edward -- with the parents of Edwards & his sibling(s) being the David Hughes, widower & Elizabeth Jones, spinster who married on 3 Dec 1879.
My third extra question -- was there was there any more information shown about David & Elizabeth on the registration record?

My final request -- please pass on anything you find about any Hughes at any Nantmor (or even Beddgelert) location on any record that you come across.

I can only say how fantastic is it to receive all this information that you've so generously looked up for me. It has taken my Hughes line well beyond where I ever though I'd get to.

My very best wishes & regards, Rob

[EmyrBorth]

Hi,
I've assumed that the dates in the Parish Registers are burial dates rather than the date of death. Both dates woould have been close to each other in those days anyway.
I've quoted all the information in the records; info is bit skimpy in the early records.
I assume your reference to marriage 03/12/1879 should read 03/12/1756.
I've recently found out that the instructions for the 1841 Census was for ages to be quoted to the nearest 5 years, rounded downwards. So the age of somebody who was ,say 28, would be quoted as 25; somebody 23 as 20. Looking at Ynyscynhaiarn Census 1841, this instruction has largely been followed, but there are a few instances where the actual age is quoted. It appears that in all cases the exact age of children are quoted.
Emyr

[robdavies66]

Thanks Emyr.
You're correct that the year of marriage should be 1756 & not 1879 -- slap hand for being so careless.
I was already aware of the 5 year rounding down rule for the 1841 Census but this still depended on people knowing how old they were -- when many people could not read or write.

Last night I was sent an email by John R Hughes who contacted me after reading all our messages in RootsChat.
John is a Second Cousin of mine, being the g/son of the elder brother of my Nain, Jane Hughes-->Williams.
This was most unexpected as I only found out about his father John Grifith Hughes when the 1911 Wales Census became available in Summer 2009!

Thanks for your part in setting the circumstances that has enabled John & myself now to be in contact with one another.
Best regards, Rob

[EmyrBorth]

Hi
I've checked the burial records of Ramoth Chapel, Llanfrothen, and can find no grave of the Hafod y Llyn Uchaf family, except the one you're already aware of:
Catherine Hughes and Daniel & Jane Hughes her son and daughter in law.

I've checked the marriage record in the Beddgelert Parish Register of Daniel Hughes(?) and Jane Maurice. Daniel's surname is given as PUGHE where the bridegroom's name is given, but seems to have been changed to HUGHES where the bride signs his name or makes his mark.

Emyr

[EmyrBorth]

Hi
Oops !  Second paragraph:  for 'bride' read 'bridegroom'.
EmyrBorth

[robdavies66]

Hi Emyr
In Reply # 4, added on 16 Nov 2009 , you included:-
"The nearest [baptism] I can find for Jane Griffiths around 1807 is:
9 March 1806, William Roberts, son of Griffith Roberts of Pen y Bont & Catherine his wife.
9 March 1806 Jane Griffith, daughter of
The rest of the line is blank which seems to imply that, "Griffith Roberts ......." applies to Jane Griffith as well. It seems quite common for a child to be given the father's first name as a surname."

On Ancestry (where I maintain my public Rob Davies' Family Tree) there has been a link for both Griffith Roberts (the father) & William Roberts (bpt 9 Mar 1806) to entries in a potential matching Family Tree.
Via Ancestry, I've contacted the owner of that Family Tree giving your above comment and adding:-
"I see from your Family Tree that you show that the subject William had four siblings, inc an Alice (24 Apr 1808 - 26 Dec 1826) but not a Jane.
Please advise how certain you are that your list of siblings is correct & what are your thoughts about the baptism entry that follows William's in the Beddgelert Parish Records."

The owner of that Family Tree has replied today (17 Aug 2010) stating:-
"Most of the information prior to 1841 has been recovered from Page 18 in a Welsh book by T Ceiri Griffiths, Achau Teuluoedd Caernarfon,Meirionnydd a Threfaldwyn "

Emyr, you've referred to this book in the past & I now have a copy. Looking at Page 18 seems to invalidate the possibility that 'my' Jane Griffith(s) was the sister of William Roberts baptised on the same day as her.
It's a pity but the baptism still seems, in my opinion, to be the correct one for 'my' Jane Griffith(s).

Best wishes, Rob