Cecil Wray, curate of St Nicholas, Liverpool.

[Doddie]

Hi again Mo and hi Suki, as usual my fellow Roots Chatters have come to my rescue. I wasn't aware of the the fact that Roman Catholics had to marry in C of E churches up until 1837. That explains a lot. The reason I am investigating the denomination of the churches is that my ancestors previously highlighted (Richard & Anne)  had a daughter, Mary Jane Dickinson (my g.g. grandmother) who married Robert Wilson. They were married in St Anne's R.C. church, Overbury St, Edge Hill, Liverpool in 1866 (I have the marriage cert.) I am attempting to establish which of the families was catholic (my efforts aren't helped by the fact that I cannot find a marriage for robert Wilson's parents) as it seems that most of the  subsequent marriages in the Wilson line including that of my g. grandfather William Gerrard Wilson were Methodist ones or at any rate not catholic ones. I hope you can follow all this. I am presuming that only one  of the Dickinson/Wilson families was catholic but that they may have had more influence when it came to where the marriage of Robert and Mary took place.

Doddie

[Doddie]

Curiouser and curiouser  (cried Alice). By, at long last, tracing a church record for the 1833 marriage of Richard Dickinson and Ann Gerrard I have established that the marriage took place in a C. of E. church in Liverpool - Liverpool Parish Church (Our Lady & St. Nicholas) in Chapel Street. This could mean therefore that both the Wilson and Dickinson families were in fact protestant. Then again, because of the previously mentioned situation mentioned by mosiefish, one or both families may have been Roman Catholic and that I have only found the marriage record for the C. of E. marriage that Richard and Ann would have had to go through to comply with the law prior to 1837. In some ways I am no further forward. I have been unable to find a record of an additional RC  marriage - if indeed there is one to find - in order for me to confirm whether Richard and Ann were in fact catholic. I simply cannot discover for definite the reason why Robert Wilson and Mary Jane Dickinson were married in a RC church in 1866.

Regards

Doddie

[Doddie]

This is just to confirm that Our Lady and St, Nicholas in Chapel Street was and is a C. of E. church.

http://www.livpc.co.uk/about_us/introduction.html

Regards

Doddie

[Blue70]

Using the 19th century marriage records you can't assume that everyone married in a C of E church was from the C of E faith. You need to look at the baptisms of the bride and groom and the children later born to them. Many RCs in Liverpool continued to use C of E churches for marriages decades after they were able to have a legal marriage in an RC church. Most Liverpool baptisms are on Ancestry.

As has been established there were 2 St Nicholas and 2 St Peter. St Nicholas CE (Our Lady and St Nicholas with St Anne) in Chapel Street is still there, St Nicholas RC Copperas Hill was demolished. St Peter CE in Church Street was demolished, St Peter RC Seel Street is still there but for eating and drinking not religion.   


Blue

[Blue70]

If you look at the top of the page of the record you mention it says, "... Parochial Chapel of St Nicholas, in Liverpool, in the County of Lancaster,.." indicating that it's part of the established church, the C of E:-

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896J-W671?i=546&cat=261432

I recognise those two surnames (don't forget alternative spellings ie Dicconson) as ones I've seen in RC records so do follow up the baptisms.


Blue

[Doddie]

Thanks for the additional feedback Blue. I will indeed  try and find the baptism entries for Richard & Ann on Ancestry.

My main problem has always been trying to establish which St. Nicholas church was referred to r.e. their marriage, the C. of. E. one in Chapel Street or the R.C. one in Copperas Hill. At least I have managed now to discover which one it was. I will everyone posted on further progress.

Regards

Doddie

[BashLad]

My experience on this is that often if I can find a marriage (or sometimes a marriage and a burial) but no baptism that's often a sign of non-conformism.

Marriage is more importantly a legal and inheritance function than a religious ceremony and had to be recognised by the state (through the established church) whereas people choose how to be buried or baptise their children.

Full catholic emancipation only took place in 1829.

[Blue70]

I see Mary Jane's birth was registered as Jane:-

DICKINSON, JANE
GERRARD [On GRO website]
1844
July/Aug/Sep
WEST DERBY
Volume 20
Page 887

Lancs BMD has the sub district as Great Crosby and the 1871 Census has the birthplace as Waterloo. I can’t find an online baptism I suspect an RC baptism, possibly at St Peter & St Paul RC in Great Crosby.

There’s a Baptist birth record that has a Richard Dickenson son of Richard & Jenny Dickenson born on 4 June 1810 at Churchtown. Nothing I can see online for Ann Gerrard. I suspect she might have been baptised RC. If you look at the 1841 Census the entry before the Dickensons is Christopher and Ellen Gerrard possibly Ann’s parents. Christopher approx age 60 years is a good match for this RC baptism in 1779 at St Swithin’s RC in Gilmoss, now in Liverpool:-

Baptism: 25 Mar 1779 St Swithin, Gilmoss, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Christopher Jaratt - son of Thos. Jaratt & Ann
Born: 19 Mar 1779
Abode: Kirkby
God Parents: Will Brookfield; Mary Brookfield
Source: LDS Film 396363

There's also an 1850 death index for a Christopher Gerrard in the West Derby registration district the GRO give the age as 71 spot on for the St Swithin's RC baptism.


Blue

[Doddie]

Some good spots there Blue. The Richard Dickenson you have found is the correct Richard. If I cross reference this for an entry in the 1871 census there is a Richard Dickinson living in Bootle with his wife Ann. The respective birth places for each of them is Church Town and Great Crosby. To broaden the subject, is it possible, with what we seemed to have established, that Richard was C. of E. and Ann was R.C. (and that maybe Richard may have converted when he married)? It makes sense to me that if the R.C. influence was from the Dickenson/Gerrard side of the family, that  might explain why Richard & Ann would have wanted their daughter Mary Jane - or as you correctly noted just Jane, when she was born - to be married in an R.C church.

Regards

Doddie