Author Topic: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?  (Read 6533 times)

Offline regross

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 26 May 09 09:21 BST (UK) »
Hello again,

I found Hannah Priscilla 1878  and Frederick Theodore 1885  on the Victorian Pioneer index as stated.

regards

Robyn
The following families and their Australian decendents:
Abbott, Barnard, Clarke, Inward, Lanfear, Rutter,Spencer:Middlesex
Greenaway:Cornwall
Edney, Godwin/Goodwin, Gullett:Hampshire;
Gullett:Devon
Emms:39th Regiment of Foot 1810-1832
Gordon:Scotland
Arnold, Morton:Ireland
Davies:Wales
Olcorn:Cumberland
Osborne:Staffordshire
Harrington:Kent
&
Gross: Tullau Wurtmemburg Germany

Offline organicgardener

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 26 May 09 22:45 BST (UK) »
Thanks very much Robyn,

This Beatrice Winifred Watters that the IGI says was born at Moonta is 100% wrong, as are some of the sibling births because they occurred in Melbourne.

My family records indicate that the family left Moonta between 1875 and 1877 (other family sibling births) to live in Moonee Ponds, Melbourne. 

About 1890 they moved to Broken Hill where Beatrice Winifred Watters (Thorneycroft) was born on 07.02.1893. At a date unknown, but suspected to be about 1891/92, Samuel Watters separated from Hannah Watters nee Scoble.

Hannah Priscilla Watters was married to William John (Jack) Vale 30.05.1896 in the home of Mr. J. Thorneycroft at Broken Hill.

I think that it is possible that Beatrice Winifred Watters, Waters or Thorneycroft may have married in South Australia or Victoria or maybe somewhere else after 1910 through to perhaps 1930 or maybe even later. I have been searching for her for over 10 years and am now looking for inspiration.

I will put a look up request on the board above.

Thanks again Robyn

Cheers

John
Challinor= Cheshire,   Onions- Walsall Staffordshire,   Cliffe/Cliff Warrington Eckersley- Salford, Heathcote Windsor, Palin Cheshire/ Beeston

Offline regross

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 27 May 09 00:00 BST (UK) »
John,

I think it is an indication that the tree compiler has not yet fully documneted the research and is possibly relying on inforamtion supplied by a third person from memeory or drawing on an old family tree compiled long agao.

I have three 70+ years old trees and have painstakingly checked all the
information given in them. (compiled by my paternal grandmother and maternal great aunt in the 1930's)

There were some errors,the biggest was that the eldest child of one couple was in fact a foster child. I uncovered when I could not find her birth but ordered marriage and death certificates which had her correct parents names and she had absolutely no connection to the couple who raised her!!

So keep looking. I have checked the Victorian marriage index with out any luck, I have tried looking at the nurses who went away in WW1 but have not been able to find a list of names as yet. I don't have access to SA data but someone on rootschat will and may be of assistance.

Lots of people went to WA in this period as Australia was in an economic depression and there was gold and land releases happening there.

In 1906 #78  a BEATRICE E  WATTERS  married DAVID W GINBEY  in BOULDER. Several children born at Boulder (no parents names given) and two deaths David W and one son also in records In 1910 # 113 a BEATRICE M THORNEYCROFT married ALBERT J SMITH. Too many Smith births to look at,  and Beatrice M Smith died in Katanning in 1933 #91 (no other inforamtion).But nothing to indicate either of these is your Beatrice.

      
It may be that the Thorneycroft family fostered her, hence the connection to the name . The foster child in my research was Annie Crane (birth name) but always refered to by my father and his brothers as Aunty Annie so everyone assumed that that was who she was!!!

Never give up, I found 8 families from one line had mocved to WA between 1895 and 1901 when I could find no further recprds for them in Victoria. Like Beatrice they seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth.


I still have one who like Beatrice I cannot find Harriet Arnold b1869 who went to WA and was still living in 1925 when her mother died in Victoria. So I know how frustrating it can be !!!!!

regards

Robyn
The following families and their Australian decendents:
Abbott, Barnard, Clarke, Inward, Lanfear, Rutter,Spencer:Middlesex
Greenaway:Cornwall
Edney, Godwin/Goodwin, Gullett:Hampshire;
Gullett:Devon
Emms:39th Regiment of Foot 1810-1832
Gordon:Scotland
Arnold, Morton:Ireland
Davies:Wales
Olcorn:Cumberland
Osborne:Staffordshire
Harrington:Kent
&
Gross: Tullau Wurtmemburg Germany

Offline organicgardener

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 10 February 13 22:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Robyn,

Sorry to take so long in replying but it could be that the Beatrice M(ary) Thorneycroft married Albert J Smith in 1910 is the one I am looking for.

Thanks

John
Challinor= Cheshire,   Onions- Walsall Staffordshire,   Cliffe/Cliff Warrington Eckersley- Salford, Heathcote Windsor, Palin Cheshire/ Beeston


Offline cando

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 10 February 13 23:11 GMT (UK) »
Quote
and Beatrice M Smith died in Katanning in 1933 #91

Beatrice Mary SMITH was interred in the Catholic section of the Katanning Cemetery in Grave#160 on 23 Nov 1932.  She was born in Ballarat, Victoria.

There is no Albert J SMITH interred at that cemetery.

Cando
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline organicgardener

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 10 February 13 23:15 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that Cando I will chase that up
Cheers
John
Challinor= Cheshire,   Onions- Walsall Staffordshire,   Cliffe/Cliff Warrington Eckersley- Salford, Heathcote Windsor, Palin Cheshire/ Beeston

Offline organicgardener

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 20 February 13 00:48 GMT (UK) »
Beatrice has been found married as Beatrice Mary Thorneycroft in Western Australia in 1910.

To all the people who have investigated, given advice, provided look ups and researched over many many years, I give my grateful thanks.
Challinor= Cheshire,   Onions- Walsall Staffordshire,   Cliffe/Cliff Warrington Eckersley- Salford, Heathcote Windsor, Palin Cheshire/ Beeston

Offline RonPim

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #25 on: Friday 06 April 18 08:33 BST (UK) »
Albert James Smith (1887-1985), better known as 'Alby', was born at Quindalup in 1887 and married Beatrice 'Beat' Mary Thorneycroft (Bourke; 1892-1983) at Collie in 1910.  'Beat' was born with the surname Thorneycroft at Broken Hill, NSW, on 7 February 1893 and came to Western Australia as a girl with her father.  Beat was then fostered or adopted by Michael Edmund Bourke and his wife Caroline Frances Seymour, who brought her up as their own with their natural sons Tom and Frank.  Michael Bourke and Caroline Seymour had been married on 8 April 1901 at St Brigid's Church in Collie, so the adoption must have occurred after that date.
When Beatrice Mary Thorneycroft married Albert James Smith in the Collie home of her adoptive parents on 22 January 1910, the marriage certificate stated that her father was Samuel James Thorneycroft, an engine-driver, and that her mother's maiden name was 'Waters'.  Additionally, a 1980 newspaper article concerning the then aging couple Alby and Beat stated that "Mrs Smith was born at Broken Hill, NSW, and came to WA as a girl with her father".  This must be our starting point in the search for Beat's parentage.
A New South Wales birth record has been located for 'Beatrice Winifred Watters' who was born illegitimately on 7 February 1893 in Wilson Street, South Broken Hill, NSW. Her mother was recorded as Hannah Watters, aged 38, who was born in Cornwall, England.  Records suggest that Hannah was Hannah Scoble who was born at St Ewe in mid Cornwall, England, on 28 September 1854, and who migrated to South Australia with her family aboard the ‘Queen Bee’ as Assisted Passage immigrants, arriving on 10 March 1865.  Her 31 year old father, William, was a miner, and her 31 year old mother was Mary Ann (nee Bawden).  Hannah was the eldest of three children, her two siblings at the time being Richard (8) and William (6).
On 25 July 1872 the marriage occurred of Hannah Scoble (17) to Samuel Watters (25), at the Wesley Church in East Moonta, South Australia (reg. 92/184).  The brides father was William Scoble, while the groom's father was also named Samuel Watters.  The couple had three sons in the Moonta area between 1873 and 1877, before moving to the Essendon/ Moonee Ponds area of Melbourne in Victoria, where they had another three children between 1878 and 1885.
Beat's great-grandson claims that Hannah entered into an affair with a Samuel James Thorneycroft, resulting in the illegitimate birth of a daughter, Beatrice Winifred Watters, on 7 February 1893. Hannah died at Broken Hill, NSW, on 15 October 1899 (reg. 12473/1899).  Was this the catalyst for her father, Samuel Thornycroft, to take the child into a new marriage later that same year?  Samuel James Thorndycroft (note the spelling) married Julia Louisa Simpson at Adelaide (reg. 198/134) in 1899 and that year Julia also gave birth to a son, Herbert William Charles Thorndycroft, at Port Adelaide (reg. 639/492).
Western Australia Railway records reveal that a married man, Samuel James Thorneycroft, was employed at Fremantle on 19 August 1899 as a labourer and lumper.  On 6 December 1899 he was transferred to Kalgoorlie, where he remained until 30 November 1901, when he was transferred again, this time to Collie.
In 1900 Samuel and Julia's son Herbert died when he was just eleven months old.  In 1901 the couple's second son, Sydney Frederick Thorneycroft (reg. 773/1901) was born in Kalgoorlie. Then in 1902 "Sam J. Thorneycroft" appeared in the Post Office directory living in Wittenoom Streeet, on the west side of Collie.  Samuel resigned from his railway job on 18 January 1902. The following year, on 14 March 1903, local newspaper "The Collie Miner" published details of sales transactions that had occurred during the previous week, one being “the whole of Mrs. Thorneycroft’s furniture and residence at West Collie”.  West Collie was also where Beat's adoptive parents were living and working.
The 1903 Electoral Rolls listed Samuel James Thorneycroft, an engine-driver, living with his wife Julia Louise in Gregory Street, Geraldton.  This surely was Beat's father, who was described exactly that way on her marriage certificate.  It seems that sometime between 1902 and 1906 Beat was fostered to Michael Bourke and his wife, Caroline, who brought her up as their own, along with their two biological children Tom (1903-1941) and Francis (1905-1964).
The 1903 and 1906 Electoral Rolls show Michael Bourke living with Caroline at Moira Colliery in Collie, where his occupation was a ‘carrier’.  The mine site bordered the western edge of the Collie town site, where the Thorneycrofts also lived in 1902.
Finally, records have been discovered for the death of Samuel James Thorndycroft (note the spelling) who died on 8 March 1906 and was buried in Karrakatta Cemetery's Anglican section CA, gravesite 0138A.
Much of this story fits with Beat's description of her parents on her marriage record, but it is possible that some other undiscovered explanation could also satisfy the criteria.  The 1893 birth record discovered for Beatrice Winifred Watters, may not be Beatrice Mary Thorneycroft, and so it is possible that the wrong trail has been followed.  But since this is the only one we have at present it will have to do.
Beat's future husband, Alby, was a cousin (by adoption), and at the age of sixteen she married him while pregnant with his child.


Offline organicgardener

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Re: Mother died- what happened to 6 yo daughter?
« Reply #26 on: Friday 06 April 18 11:27 BST (UK) »
Thanks RonPim for all of your information.
I have almost all the information that you have posted however I don't think that Mr J Thorneycroft  entered into an affair with Hannah rather he entered a relationship as a father with two small children as his wife had just died and he needed a woman to look after his young sons,  Hannah and  Samuel James Thorneycroft's residing together resulted in the illegitimate birth of a daughter, Beatrice Winifred Watters, on 7 February 1893. I also believe that Beatrice's middle name was changed to Mary as a result of Confirmation.
I have an awful lot of info now on Beatrice. I used to live in South Australia but now live in Tasmania and met a grand daughter here in Tassie. Where do you live?
I have a number of photographs and BDMs that I could email you if you are interested. I am John Watters.
Challinor= Cheshire,   Onions- Walsall Staffordshire,   Cliffe/Cliff Warrington Eckersley- Salford, Heathcote Windsor, Palin Cheshire/ Beeston