Lawless/Loftus families

[GRACELANDS]

Anyone shed any light on Patrick aged 48 and Winifred Lawless aged 43 both born Ireland and Thomas Loftus  aged 70 and Patrick Loftus  aged 61 also born Ireland.  Living at 42 Alcester St Birmingham with there family on the 1881 census   Patrick and Win are my Great Grand parents but I know nothing about them and have no one to ask.  May have come over in the potato famine.  I do not know of any relatives, I assume there must be some.

Thanks for any help or advice

  Gracelands

[Dave Francis]

Hi Gracelands

To save anyone having to look it up, here is the full census entry:

1881 Aston (Deritend) Warwickshire
RG 11/3012 folio 76 pp 9-10
3 House 3 Court, Alcester St

Patrick Lawless, head, mar, 48, wire worker, Ireland
Winifred do., 40, Ireland
Ellen do., daur, 17, Bham Warwickshire
Catherine do., 15, Bham Warwickshire
Mary do., 11, scholar, Bham Warwickshire
Thomas do., son, 9, Bham Warwickshire
Patrick <Bramus?>, nephew, unm, 26, wire weaver, Bham Warwickshire
Thomas Loftus, father in law, widr, 70, farm labourer, Ireland
Patrick Loftus, uncle in law, widr, 61, bricklayer labourer, Ireland

So...

We are looking for the marriage of a Patrick Lawless and Winifred Loftus, possibly in England.

We could also look for the birth record of a Winifred Loftus, daughter of Thomas Loftus and ??.

Maybe also the death of Thomas's wife.

Next stop: 1871 Census

[Dave Francis]

More members of the family!

1871 Birmingham (St Martin) Warwickshire
RG 10/3107 folio 84 page 21
Ho 23 Mill Street

Patrick Lawless, head, 34, wire worker, Ireland
Winifred do., wife, 30, Ireland
Ellen do., daur, 7, scholar, Birmingham Warwickshire
<Chatrine !?> do., daur, 5, scholar, Birmingham Warwickshire
Mary do., daur, 1, Birmingham Warwickshire
Ellen Murphy, sister in law, mar, 30, plaid maker, Ireland
Patrick do., bro in law, mar, 31, bricklayers labourer, Ireland
John do., nephew, 1, Birmingham Warwickshire
Patrick <Brannan ?>, nephew, 26, wire worker, Birmingham Warwickshire
Thomas do., nephew, 14, wire worker, Birmingham Warwickshire

[lcsnor]

Patrick Lawless appears to be in Birmingham in 1861 also with Patrick Brennan in the same household.

23 Milk Street, St.Martins, B'ham
Thomas Lawles, 55, laborer, Ireland
Ellen Lawles, 50, wife, Ireland
Patrick Lawles, son, 25(?26) wire worker, Ireland
Bridget Lawles,dtr, 20, warehouse woman, Ireland
Patrick Brennan,g'son, 6, B'ham
Thomas Brennan,g'son, 4, B'ham
Thomas Carrol, 40, lodger, Ireland

RG9/2145/98/19

[lcsnor]

Can't spot the marriage, nor can I spot an Ellen Loftus marrying Patrick Murphy.

I can see a Winefred Loftus who is a 20 yr old servant b. Ireland in Wolverhampton in 1861 - but there's no way of knowing if she's your one!

Can't spot Thomas or Patrick Loftus in earlier censuses

Anyway wasn't sure if you had them in 1891

Alcaster Street, Aston, Birmingham

Patrick Lawless, 50 , wire netting(?) maker, b.Ireland
Winefred, 48, Ireland
Mary, dtr, 21, lacquerer, b. B'ham
Thomas, son, 21, brass cabinet maker, b. B'ham
George Jones, 2, grandson,  B'ham.

and in 1901

Cheapside, Aston, Birmingham

Patrick Lawless, 64, dipper of brass/wireworker, Ireland
Winifred, 63, Ireland
Ellen Downey, dtr, wid, 36, press tool maker, B'ham
Mary Lawless, 31, brass knob lacquerer, B'ham
Thomas Lawless, 29, brass worker, shop fittings, B'ham
George Jones, 12, grandson, B'ham
Winifred Jones, 10, g'dtr, B'ham

What a shame that there's no Irish county mentioned to give you some more clue to their origins.

Not sure what else to look for. 
If you look on freeBMD you can see the probable deaths of Thomas & Ellen Lawless.

good luck

Louise

[jorose]

There's a "Winefred" Loftus who married Sep 1863 quarter in Birmingham but apparently not to Patrick.
There's also a Patrick Lawless who married Sep 1861 quarter in Birmingham (on freebmd this reference is wrong, should be 244 not 214 for the page), but again no Winifred about.

My question would be - was Winifred the mother of the first children (Ellen and Catherine), or only of the later ones (perhaps Mary and after). The birth certificate of Ellen who appears to be the eldest might be a good idea.

Do you have any idea which church they attended? (http://www.bham.de/index_churches.html if you want a list of possibles).

[lcsnor]

One more thing....

The Ellen & Patrick Murphy who are listed as sister in law & brother in law would appear to actually be Patrick Lawless' sister Bridget & her husband Patrick Murphy.  Their marriage is in freeBMD and they are still living at the same address in Milk St. in 1881.

louise

[GRACELANDS]

  Louise,

Thank you so much for all you help, You have taken a lot of time and trouble, I really appreciate it, and it as given me a lot of info, but as you say I am no nearer finding where in Ireland they came from.

Good luck with your own research

Gracelands

[lcsnor]

One thing you can do is really look at everyone who you know belongs to the family in every census you can.  For example  I didn't follow the Brannan boys (well I did have a quick look but there were a number of possibilities).  You only have to find one of these people in one census saying a county in Ireland and you have your lead. 
My 2x gt grandmother claimed consistently to have been born in London .... except once, when she said Limerick, Ireland.  Now, I can't find her in family in Limerick but at least I have a clue that I'm looking in the right place and one day.......

Feel free to ask if there's anything else needs looking at..... sometimes I get bored with my lot!

Louise