CARTER family from Paulton somerset.

[RayDen]

Trees

Just a little more confusion.  The Mary Gulliford that George Carter married was also from Camerton, the marriage took place in 1857. 

However the BathBMD (with mothers name supplied) supports the George/Mary family in Paulton in 1871 being Mary Snook from Camerton , i.e. Joseph 1863, Martha 1864 and Eliza 1868 (all with a mother Snook).

So this is a different George and Mary to:
* George and Mary Gulliford and
* George/Mary Ann Badger.

Regards

Ray

[Trees]

Ray I have David Joseph b Dec 1872 MT 11a 367 I had not found an earlier David was he David Joseph b Dec 1868 MT 11a 337died mar qt 1871 age 2 Merthyr t 11a 251
So another pair of twins
CARTER Edith  Mar 1879 MT11a 413
Carter    Gertrude        Merthyr T.    11a   412
Death Mar 1879CARTER    Gertrude    0    Merthyr T.    11a   289
I can't see an Annie in 1883 where was she born?

George who married Mary Gulliford in 1857 was born 1819 on the 1861 census and b 1820 on the 1871 census so I have him as the son of George and Elizabeth ANSTEE and too old for either of the Jacob Georges

I have George son of Jacob and Sarah m the SNOOKS girl and have
Joseph, Martha and Eliza for them this George died between 1871 and 1881 his DoB was 1829 I am still in favour of Jacob and Martha I take it the father's name on the marriage certificate was indeed Jacob? Were there any family witnesses?
Bed time will add in the morning
Trees

[RayDen]

Hi Tree's

I think there were two David Josephs (is that right Lisa?) with one born 1869 which I have and dying in 1871.  I presume that David Joseph No2 is Lisa's grandfather.

Nope I can't see an Annie either, and she isn't on the 1891 census, there were 8 children with Mary Ann at that time:

                                   Edward (20)                 James  (31)
                                   Thomas F (26)             David J   (18)
                                   Edith  (12)                     Mary A  (16)
                                   Matilda (15)                  Rebecca (16)

Gertrude died in childbirth, John Henry (29) and George (25) are not at home.
Taking account of David Joseph that accounts for 12 children so I am missing two.

I took the names from the family tree that was given me and had not checked all the names myself. Slapped wrist I think.

I am now very confused with the Georges (did you know there are 4 George/Mary Carter pairings in Paulton on the 1871 census -thankfully different ages).

On the marriage certificate it has father Jacob, Georges age is given as full and there are no family witnesses - not a lot of help.

I think your research is also leaning me towards Jacob/Martha line, but my head is beginning to ache.  As you say its bedtime.  Give it another go tomorrow (or the next day!)

Regards

Ray

[Trees]

Oooh there are a Cart load of Carters Ray I have no less than 77 Georges all from the Paulton area(55 frm Paulton)they are a nightmare to sort as you are finding  3 in 1817 3 in 1819 3 in 1827 besides the ones in 1816 1818 1820 etc we have to keep a very open mind on who is/was who and with out definite proof must take great care so we need some one to look at the entries for the marriages to see who the father was in each case  such as the Gulliford one until I know for definite that George's father was Jacob i am going on his age on the censuses and rule him out of the "Jacob" Georges.
I look at the ages given on censuses these often vary from census to census with individuals but you can usually follow a family through with names and dates of children I usually thing the age on the earliest census found is most likely to be the nearest but it depends on who filled in the census They didn't celebrate each passing year as we do now and the memory often played tricks 
After that I look at the names some strictly follow family traditions thats why I have put your George with Jacob and Martha. But its all "educated" guess work really until we can find something concrete I doubt that there would have been a bastardy order in 1858 so unless the father is named which is again hit and miss for children born out of wedlock  the only other way we can link James John Badger to George though today the DNA people would say all you need is a known male decendant of George and a known male descendant of James and it would be clear.Ah but in1911 she says she had 9 out of 14 children of this marriage living so James must be George's child

so my list is now
James          1858      
John Henry      1861      
Thomas Francis   1864         
George       1866   
David Joseph       1868-1871    
Edward       1870      
David Joseph      1872      
Rebecca Ann      1874      
Mary Martha      1874       
Matilda       1876      
Edith          1879
Gertrude       1879 -1879

and I am missing 2 there are many more MT Carters listed
but no obvious gaps and where did Annie feature? was Annie a pet nameor an unregistered second name they have used different names along the way  such as the Mary A on two censuses but registered Mary Martha

[Trees]

There is a possible William Henry born Mar qtr 1877 died June qtr 1877 that could fit in between Matilda and Edith & Gertrude and a possible but tight Reuben Sep 1869-Sep 1870 between David Joseph(1) and Edward but that is tight DJ would have to be born October and or Reuben premature

If these are right it adds more credence to the Jacob/Martha theory with Reuben and Henry featuring among the children.

I wonder if there are baptisms for these children in Cardiff RO that would make an easy visit for one of us and sort the lot out in on session does anyone in the family know if they were Church or chapel or nothing?

I found an interesting bit by G..gling Jacob Carter Paulton  a Jacob a miner from Paulton had a lease on mining land in High Littleton and there were Carters in HL so is that where the two Jacobs are from I think they could well be cousins and its strange neither has a bap in Paulton

The Matilda with Jacob in 51 is listed directly under George I am wondering if he was the father although he is listed as single strangely Bath BMDs has Matilda Carter mothe Holbrook but Free BMD has her as Matilda HOLBROOK
so was she born out of wedlock to a miss holbrook who had named George as the father? We need someone to check that one for us there is no obvious female Holbrook death corresponding with the birth there is a martha dying but she was over 50 It is strange for a baby under a month to be visiting with out a mother and she is listed befor the otherchildren of Jacob HO107/1939 fo150 p18 she cant be Kezia's as she was married before the birth so her child would have been a Parfitt    any thoughts? george went on to have a Matilda with mary Ann didn't he We have this Matilda on the 1851 and 1861 censuses i need to follow her up surely george wouldn't call a second daughter Matilda if the first was still around,

Now I must go and do some work back later
Trees

[Trees]

Right a Matilda married Alfred BURGE in 1870 father James CARTER
This was james Carter (born High Littleton)and Arabella HARRIS so not ours
Now I MUST go and work
Trees

[astley7]

Sorry i dont know if there was another David Joseph, not a lot was said about this family and its history, by my gran.  And there is no evidence of this in the family Bible.

best wishes

[RayDen]

Trees

Am today sending for John Henry birth certificate hoping it will give an address that will be useful.  Will also send for James John birth certificate but just showing a father named George Carter is not going to help identify the correct Jacob.

If I set my thinking out, there were 5 Geroge Carters born in the period 1821 to 1831 

                1. Stephen/Elizabeth  18 Nov 1827 (died April 1828 age 7 months)
                2. Jacob/Sarah            25 Dec 1827
                3. Jacob/Martha          30 Dec 1827
                4. Stephen/Elizabeth  19 April 1829
                5. John/Amy                 25 Dec  1831 (died Feb 1832 age 1 year)

I have been unable to locate any likely George Carter (born Paulton) in Wales on the 1861 census.  There are however two likely Georges on the Paulton 1861 census:

  a.  George (age 32) with Jacob & Sarah, and
  b.  George (age 36) lodging with Alfred Whatley

However is this George (b) Jacob/Martha's or  Stephen/Elizabeth's .  He was lodging so his age might have been given by his landlord and wrong. 

I have the following comparison for the two Jacob Georges:

                              Jacob/ Sarah            Jacob/Martha
                                  George                     George

   Baptised              25 Dec 1827          30 Dec 1827

  1841 Census   age 10 (1831)            age 12 (1829)
  1851 Census   age 23 (1828)            age 22 (1829)
  1861 Census   age 32 (1829)            age 36 (1825)
 
assuming our George is Jacob/Sarahs

  1871 Census  age 45 (1826)              ?
  1881 Census  age 50 (1831)              ?

  1883 died      age 55 (1828)               

have not yet obtained death certificate to confirm but only on George Carter to have died  in Merthyr over 10 year period 1881 to 1891.  With ages all over the place its a nightmare.

With regard to your point about Mary Ann saying 14 children of this marriage, she was married to John Jenkins at that time, but I like you assume that George was the father of James John.

Need to do some more checking on the missing children i.e. Annie

I do believe the family were chapel when in Wales.  Only recently a cousin of mine pointed out a chapel on Aberbargoed hill that he says was the family chapel.  I shall have to visit to see if they hold any registers.

Regards

Ray

 
           

[Trees]

Tea break so i've been looking at julia Carter who married James

Susanna Carter single  dau of jacob and martha
 Julia bap 5 Aug 1859 paulton
1861 with Jacob wid Kezia Wid and other ch of jacob
1871 Neice of Marias SPERRING in Camerton Maria Susanna's sister

George /Elizabeth CHAPMAN
They had 2 Julias the second being
Julia bap 12 Dec 1858
1861  with parents in Paulton
1871 with widowed mother   transcribed on An..ry as Lulia! in Paulton

1881 i can only find 1 no deaths or marriages before
Servant in Bath

Marriage to
ALMOND    George        Bath    5c   975 Jun qtr 1882
CARTER    James Bridgend Sep qtr 1883

1891 in Camerton RG12/1927 fo 104 p23
George Almond,Julia, Edward, Elizabeth  and Beatrice

We need to find the other julia in 1881 but I think Mrs Almond was the Servant fram Bath and as she is living in Camerton I think I favour her being  Susanna's Julia once again we need the marriage certificate or a look at the register for James and Julia's marriage to see if her dad was George It would also be interesting to see who Mrs Almond's father was on her marriage entry
back to work ironing I hate it would rather be doing FH 
Trees