Author Topic: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.  (Read 14690 times)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 21:55 BST (UK) »
Regarding the mysterious Ormsby Hamilton. From the 1911 Irish census, I wonder if the following entry could be his www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/:

Thomas Ormsby Hamilton, 52, farmer, b. Co Sligo
Elizabeth Hamilton, wife, 28, b. Co Sligo (married 9 years, no children)
James Hamilton, brother, 55, farmer, b. Co Sligo

The family show as living in 1 Knockbeg West (Collooney, Sligo)...is this where the Hotel Collooney (Calonie/ Killiney) comes in....

Also, I wonder if this the Castle reference you quoted: Markree Castle Hotel Sligo in Collooney www.markreecastle.ie (click on the History link for background)

All speculative, not sure if this will help you much at this stage.
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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 07 October 09 08:55 BST (UK) »
That could be him, the hotel was just outside Dublin, Ellen use to say that it was Killarney(?) and that she lived with her mother in Dun Laoghaire and I noticed on a may Killiney, which isnt far from where she lived.  Just looking at my notes and there was a Hamilton who was the teacher at the school. 

I have just thought if Ormesby Hamilton was wheelchair bound, then I wouldnt have though he would be a farmer, but there again, Ellen strayed from the truth, inventing people to fit in with her story.  Prime example is Ormesby being a male one minute then mother to Maggie Hamilton the next.
I also think I found her out on another, she told me that she was a contortionist at Professor Popeji circus(cant remember the exact name of the circus).  But on investigation this particular circus I found out was around in South Africa when Ellen lived over there and definetely wasnt in England in 1938-1940.  The only truth she has said is that she belong to the army in Nottingham and met her future husband there!
I wonder if I will ever find out about her family and her life.  Her home whilst in Ireland was in Adelaide street next to the school.  On searching a map there is a Adelaide street and I found out there was a school there.
So she must have been there!
Regards Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.  Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.  Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 11 October 09 20:24 BST (UK) »
Hi, You asked where I had seen Robert born glasgow

I have found the census for 1891 which shows
Janet Russell Head Widower age 50 born Lanarkshire Glasgow
Robert age 13 unemployed born Glasgow
Catherine age 11 scholar born Glasgow
Catherine Robertson mother widow age 83 born Lanarkshire Glasgow

all living at 338 Duke Street Camlachie Barony

this is my family.

I couldnt quite remember where I had seen where Robert was born.
On Robert's marriage certificate it gives Robert's father as Joseph Russell Iron Turner deceased.

regards Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.  Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.  Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 11 October 09 21:32 BST (UK) »
Trish, we're going round the houses on this one  ::) The entry above is the one we have discussed a few times. This Robert's father was a Robert, occupation a coach body maker. No reference to a Joseph here unfortunately.

Apart from being born c. the right time and mother's name showing as Robinson, there is nothing really to connect your Robert to this one in Glasgow.

I agree with the other researcher you are working with and also with Mo from your previous post, that it is more likely, given the info you have that your Robert was born in Kircudbright to Janet Bissett. You have all the clues there in that family:

1. Robert Welsh Bisset born illegitimate to Janet Bisset in Troqueer, Kircudbright in 1877.
2. Janet Bisset's mother was Janet Robson which may explain the use of that surname in error in RWBR's marriage entry for his mother's name.
3. Robert's brother, Joseph Bisset, married as Russell showing his father as a Joseph Russell and mother Janet Bisset. What was the occupation showing for fatherJoseph from the image that Mo sent you of this marriage entry?
4. This Robert's marriage entry to likely first wife Robina shows an occupation that matches what you have in his marriage entry to Maggie later that year.

These are the actual facts that you have to work with. To be honest, the fact that RWBR married in Glasgow is no indication of his birth place.

Monica

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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #22 on: Monday 12 October 09 07:50 BST (UK) »
No you miss understand me, Robert on the 1891 census says his birthplace is glasgow, also there are a few things which dont tally up.  Roberts grandmother was a Catherine Robinson, Maggie has something completey different.  Also Robert had a sister Catherine.  There again Maggie has another name.  This is why I cannot actually agree that what Maggie has is my family.  I dont disagree with the fact that Robert could have been married before.  But until I reconcile these names I cannot agree that Maggie's family is mine.
regards Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.  Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.  Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #23 on: Monday 12 October 09 07:51 BST (UK) »
Sorry forgot to mention Joseph was iron turner.
regards Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.  Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.  Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #24 on: Monday 12 October 09 09:33 BST (UK) »
That's great news that on Joseph Bisset's marriage, under the name of Russell, his father Joseph Russell shows as an iron turner! That, for me, would be the last piece on the verification trail that the family down in Dumfries is indeed your Robert's family   ;)

As mentioned, you and Maggie are tracing different family for RBWR. Maggie has the family in Dumfries, you have the family in Glasgow as potential family for RWBR.

The Robert born in Glasgow to Robert and Janet (Robinson) is the one who had a sister Catherine and maternal grandmother Catherine.

The Robert in Dumfries, b.. Torqueer, is the one born illegitimate with the connection to the names Welsh/Bissett/Russell. His brother Joseph, showed his father as Joseph Russell, iron turner, which is what your Robert gave as information. His maternal grandmother was Janet Robson, the surname your Robert gave on his MC to Maggie. This Robert's sister was Thomasina. This Robert also has the right occupation and was free to marry Maggie following the v. early death of first wife Robina.

I think this might be as close as you get Trish, without visiting a genealogy centre in Scotland and going through all the Robert Russell marriage/ deaths to discout the Glasgow born one. I think his family is the one that Maggie has. All the information you have on RWBR are contained within this family.

I think you have not been helped by some of the family stories that have been handed down. Particularly that RWBR died c. 1930. As you have seen, there is nothing to support this. The fact that the family seem  to have been divided in the 1920s would make me suspect that RWBR and Maggie may have parted around this time, although not through a formal divorce which in that period was out of reach for many people.

What did the 1959 death cert say for the Robert who died in Dumfries regarding wife/ves, parents, informant and occupation?

Monica


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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #25 on: Friday 16 October 09 16:22 BST (UK) »
Hi thanks for that and I do apologies, thanks for your imput, if I every get this thing entirely sorted out I will let you know.  But as you say family stories hey!

Thanks again Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.  Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.  Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 03 November 09 13:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I can now prove that Robert Welsh bissett Russell is a totally different person that Robert Welsh Bissett.  Maggie has Robert Welsh Bissett on the 1891 Census in Dumfies with his mother Janet and his grandmother also Janet along with his sister Thomasina & Thomasina's daughter Josephine.

I have my Robert Welsh Bissett Russell also on the 1891 Census for 338 Duke Street Glasgow with his mother Janet Russell nee Robertson, his grandmother Catherine Robertson and Robert's sister Catherine.

So therefore the marriage Maggie has of Robert Welsh Bissett to Margaret Hamilton is wrong!  It was my Robert W B Russell who married Margaret Hamilton in 1911. 

So not only do they both appear on the 1891 Census, but the sisters names are different. 

No doubt this argument will go on but I am satisfied that my Robert W B Russell is not Robert Welsh Bissett who married Robina Gardiner Kirk.

regards Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.  Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.  Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern