Author Topic: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.  (Read 14527 times)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #9 on: Monday 05 October 09 22:54 BST (UK) »
Trish

I was just about to post this when your last post came up, so I will leave as is.

Regarding Robert, he's not so straight forward is he!

Where did he use his full name of Robert Welsh Bissett Russell? Was this from his marriage entry?

Why do you think he was born in the Glasgow area? There is nothing yet confirmed for him in either births or censuses. I would say at this stage, he could have been born anywhere.

If his age is 34 at marriage, then that lead us to a c. 1877 birth. If 24, then that's a different set of searches. Would be good to have a clearer image from SP so that you can be more certain.

His parents, both deceased by the time of his marriage show as Joseph Russell, an iron turner, and Janet Robson.

I am not at all conviced by that family in Glasgow in 1881, headed up by a Robert Russell 39, Coach Body Maker by trade. Both name and occupation are out. The father was certainly Robert (not a mistake on the entry) as Mo, on your previous post linked above, kindly looked at some images for you. She found the marriage between this Robert Russell and Janet Robertson in 1877 and I believe she sent you the image.

Why do you think this might be your Robert? I note that mother Janet is showing as Robertson.

Again, from MO's work in 2007, she found the illegitimate birth of a Robert Welsh Bisset, to a Janet Bisset, in 1877 in Troqueer, Kircudbright. What is interesting about this info from Mo is the additional details she found. Janet Bisset had a number of illegitimate children apart from Robert WB. She had a son Joseph Bisset, who when he married under the name of Joseph Russell showed (again quoting from the info posted by Mo):

Joseph Bisset Russell aged 21 marries Janet Edgar Milleraged 20. on 11 November 1887 in district of Dumfries. His parents are Joseph Russell and Janet Bissett

I believe Mo also sent you this image. what was the occupation for the father Joseph Russell on the above cert?

I did think back in 2007 that this Robert was highly likely to be your Robert. Quite often in illegitimate births, the child goes by both surnames of mother and reputed father. In later life, they also very often switch to father's surname. It is an unusual set of names and you have them here in this family. The only thing that didn't fit was mother's surname Bisset v. Robson.

This lady that you have made contact with on Curious Fox. What is her connection to Robert WBR? What info does she have on a possible death for him in 1959?

Given his age and the marriage date of 1911, it is not surprising that he may have been married before. The date of first wife's death fit well within the time line. His occupation also fits well with that showing on his marriage cert with Maggie in 1911.

The other confusing part is also what happened to the family between your mother's birth and then the move to Ireland and back. As you have found, it was probably a confusing sad time for your mother that she did not want to remember. On this basis, I would treat the story of her returning to Glasgow area for her father's death c. 1930 with some caution.
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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 13:00 BST (UK) »
I have taken another look at the ages of RWB Russell and Margaret Hamilton on another copy which seems to be clearer, so I think you are right with Robert being 24 and Maggie being 25.  I certainly agree with the time scale of Robert possibly being married before Margaret, but what we dont agree on is the grandmother of Robert WB Russell. 

I have spoken to my sister and she says the reason why she was centrering on Glasgow was the family story that they were born and lived in Glasgow.  But on speaking to another relative, he says that Robert was born in Dumfries, now if this is so, then there is a good chance that Maggie is probably right,  and that Robert was first married to Robin Gardiner Kirk.  Certainly both Roberts seem to work for the railway.  The only info I have on RWB Russell is on the wedding certificate using Robert Welsh (Welch) Bissett Russell.  I did wonder at one time if it was a name he dreamt up, making himself seem important, or that it was an alias.  I wasnt quite convinced that Maggie and I were talking about the same RWB Russell.  However, there must be a way to proove that they are one and the same, and that Maggie hasnt just latched onto 'my RWBR'.  How do I go about either confirming or denying the connection?  But how do we go about confirming the grandparent?  As Maggie has a completely different name from me.
There is also the death of RWBR again we disagree with the date, but Ellen was so definate in her age when she returned to Scotland because her father died.  However, doesnt it seem rather strange that they left RWBR in Scotland when they went to live in Dublin. 
Also, another of the jigsaw is the occupation of RWBR's wife whilst in Dublin, apparently she worked at a castle (name evades me at mo but was suppose to be owned by a Mr O. Hamilton).

On speaking to another relative in South africa about Ellen's life in Dublin, and on mentioning the name of the person who owned the castle, I was met with the query, 'thats strange - my son's family tree project from school, Ellen had enter the name of the owner of the Castle - Mr O Hamilton, as Magaret's mother', so strangely the owner of the castle - male had then become female! ??? :-X

The lady on Curious Fox never replied, and I tried several times. 

The mind boggles
Regards Trish


Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.† Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.† Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

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Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 16:19 BST (UK) »
Hi Trish

If we have the right Robert WBR, on his marriage the age should be 34 which then fits that 1877 birth for a Robert Bisset, with mother Janet Bisset.

Have you looked at the death cert of the Robert Russell mentioned in 1959 in Dumfries to see what it says? The 1911 census for Scotland, when it is released, may help in placing Robert once and for all in terms of birth place, age and occupation.

Just something to think about. Always the possibility that Robert and Maggie parted ways after the births of the children. Divorce was not practical for many people in those days. May explain some of the things that happened at that time and why so little is known about Robert WBR in later years.

Trish, in respect of the children of Robert and Maggie. You are outside the period where you can view births on line at Scotlands People. It's an expensive and sometimes fruitless exercise to try and guess births and then have to order them at £10 each, only to find they are the wrong ones. Are you based in Scotland or elsewhere. Just wondering whether you have the option to visit any of the centres (e.g. Glasgow or Edinburgh) and view these more modern certificates on line there.

Monica

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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 17:00 BST (UK) »
I dont have his death certificate as no one has actually located it!  As you say RWB Russell seems to be very elusive!  Like the Scarlet Pimpernel, they seek him here they seek him there!

Regards Trish
Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.† Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.† Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 17:08 BST (UK) »
No one has located the 1959 cert in Dumfries either ?

Needle in a hay stack sometimes!

Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 17:13 BST (UK) »
Just picking up on the earlier post. There are at least 75 deaths for a  Robert Russell between 1921-60 in his age range....certainly one to look up at a genealogy centre in Scotland!
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 17:17 BST (UK) »
Doohhh  :P

There is a death for a Robert Welsh Bisset b. 1878 in Dumfries in 1959. Might be worth you looking at that to see what it says. This must be the entry referred to in the CF post you would think given the names.

Monica
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Offline 'Trish'

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 19:43 BST (UK) »
Going through the papers that Maggie sent me, I have found the death certificate for RWBR in 1959, but I believe that my RWBR died in 1930, also the grandmother is different, and the sister's name is different, I have that Roberts sister was Catherine, on Maggies the sister is Thomasina, unless of course Robert had two sisters both Thomasina and Catherine.

The name I was trying to find earlier was Omesbury, the hotel owner (according to Ellen) was Ormsby Hamilton and that he was wheelchair bound and owned the hotel Calonie? Killiney?  Then mysteriously Ormesbury changes sex and becomes female and mother to Margaret Hamilton! :-X
Also the other tattoo was 'Arizoca's daughter', he had two tattoo's - & 'Compowell of India'?  I have tried to find out about these two tattoos to see what she was refering to but have been unable to find them, maybe she dreamt this up too?

So plan of action:
1.  I need to look for a death of RWBR in 1930.
2.  I need to find if Thomasina and Catherine are indeed sisters
3.  I need to confirm the grandmother of Robert, I have Catherine Robertson (b 1808) and Maggie has Janet Robson (b6. 1806 Troqueer).

I'm just looking at my notes and at some point when speaking to Ellen, she mentioned her return to her family in Pollockshaw, when RWBR died at the age of 9-10 years.

Unfortunately (or fortunately - lovely holiday town - have you been?) I live in Bournemouth, so its a bit tricky for me to go to Scotland, I might have to leave that exercise until I can get up there say for a couple of days.

Regards Trish

Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset.† Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire.† Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Monmouth. Dix or Dicks - Frome. Pugh - Llanbrynmair, Trevithin & Tafolwern

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families.
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 06 October 09 21:44 BST (UK) »
Hi Trish

Thomasina was another of the illegitimate children of Janet Bisset. She was born in Morton By Thornhill, Dumfries-shire on 08 SEP 1870. I have been struggling in the last day or so to find the Bisset family in the 1871/1881 census. This looks like them in 1891:

Janet Bisset 58 (Parochial Aid), b. Dumfries, Dumfriesshire
Janet Bisset 89 (Parochial Aid), b. (Priestland), Kirkcudbrightshire
Thomasina Bisset 20, Woollen Sower, b. Morton
Robert Bisset 13 b. Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbrightshire...This is Robert Welsh Bisset
Josephina Bisset 2, granddaughter, b. Dumfries

Address: 131 High St, Dumfries

Loose them again by 1901!

You and Maggie seem to have different opinions as to who Robert WBR was. Maggie seems to be following the family above, with the short marriage for Robert to Robina in 1910 before his marriage to Maggie Hamilton in 1911. The death in 1959 looks to be for this Robert. Who reported the death, not clear from what you have said. Did parents show as Joseph Russell, an iron turner or something similar, and Janet Bisset on this certificate?

Trish, you seem to be in conflict in your head and from what you say, you seem to think that Robert is the one showing as son of Robert Russel, a coach body maker and Janet Robertson (it is this Janet Robertson whose mother is Catherine Morrison). This Robert was born in Glasgow, and shows with a sister Catherine and we have census entries for him, still with mother in 1901 with father having died when he was young.

My own gut feel pulls toward the RWB, son of Janet Bisset. All the middle surnames are in this family. Re-inforced by when brother Joseph Bisset married, he married as Russell with father showing as Joseph Turner and mother Janet Bisset. He shows later in Glasgow area with his wife by 1901, working as a railway shunter.

Just reading through your last post, I see that Maggie has found that Janet Bisset's mother's maiden name was Janet Robson, which just adds to the possibility that Robert WBR got confused with his mother's maiden name and gave his maternal granny's surname at the time of his marriage to Maggie Hamilton.

But these are my own thoughts.....it is you who has to be certain and confident in what you are finding† ;)

Monica
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