Author Topic: COMPLETED Claud Butler of Fulham - with Carmarthenshire COMPLETED  (Read 11312 times)

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,070
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 18 October 09 18:42 BST (UK) »
the place name looks like it could be Llanwrda which was in Llandovery registration district at that time. But, very few Butler bmds in the district. There is a birth reg for Edith Constance D Butler in june qtr 1875, but also a death reg for her in march qtr 1881 in Cardiff registration district, so she doesn't appear on a census.

Agree with Valda -  the marriage cert with details of John's father should help your search.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline lizzieliza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #19 on: Monday 19 October 09 09:47 BST (UK) »
Hi there.
Many thanks to you all for your help, very much appreciated.
Liz

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline lizzieliza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 07 November 09 12:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone.
I have finally got the marriage cert for Claud's father. details as follows :-

John Morgan Butler b. 1871 married Mary Wotton on 12.3.1901 in Ashford Kent.

It gives John's father as Martin Butler Profession=Gentleman

Now we know that John was born in Carmathen. I believe our link to Claud has to come from one of John's siblings.

Claud is on the 1901 census as living in London.

What I am desparate to find out is, who John's siblings/Parents were and whether they moved to London as a family?


Could someone please check census' for me to try and find john and his family in Carmarten? I really would appreciate your help.
Many thanks.
Liz

Offline Tati

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 27,845
  • Ephraim's daughter to infinity & beyond
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 07 November 09 17:45 GMT (UK) »
Tricky one  :P

There's only one Martin Butler on the 1881 census for Wales, and he doesn't have a son John:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881wales&indiv=try&h=5407108

Still no John Morgan Butler born Carmarthenshire that I can see at all.

Who were the marriage witnesses - anyone called Morgan or Butler?
"My dear, I think the English pronounce it 'appiness"

I'm afraid of no ghost

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline lizzieliza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 07 November 09 19:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi Tati.

The witnesses were both from Mary Wottons family. No Morgans or Butlers.

This search is becoming a real headache! I have delved into every site I can think of, and there are so few Martin's, and none appear to be mine  ::) I did look at the BMD and found a Martin married in 1873 in Swansea, figuring he might have moved about a bit, I had someone offer to check it out. They said this Martin married either Hannah or Claudia Davies. So, I checked through census' thinking if I come across a son John I may be in with a chance. Can't find them at all!

He's surely got to be out there somewhere?

The other strange thing is, Claud Butler, who somehow links to our family, and the whole reason for this search, doesn't appear to be on anyones tree, and yet being the famous person he was, I felt sure someone would have claimed him as their ancestor?

I really appreciate you trying to help me out.
Many thanks.
Liz


Offline Valda

  • Global Moderator
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 16,160
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 08 November 09 11:28 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Once it gets this difficult you have to bring in the possibility of illegitimacy. Illegitimate people if they married where they were not known do not usually admit they are illegitimate on their marriage certificates. Their fathers are given the same surnames as themselves which might be the same anyway if they decided to use their father's surname when they became an adult or it might be different. If illegitimate it calls into question any details that are given about the father.
You have two surnames in the frame Butler and Morgan.

What age did John Morgan Butler give on his marriage. Was it consistent with the censuses?


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline lizzieliza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 08 November 09 11:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi Valda.
Thank you for taking time to advise on this.
Yes, ages etc are consistant. John Morgan Butler was 30 yrs when married in 1901, the same age as on 1901 census. On 1911 census he is 39. a Draper. On his marriage cert his father is listed as Gentleman. Now, they were clearly a family of means, because Claud was very young when he started his cycle business etc.
Morgan is quite unusual for a middle name isn't it? Can't say I've come across it before.
I spent last night going through all the possible births covering a 7 years period, not one John Morgan!

I think I am now losing the plot ??? because the possibility that Martin, who married in Swansea in 1873 (again, who I can't find on census) could be the father of John Morgan Butler. Swansea comes under Glamorganshire, could this have something to do with the name??

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,070
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 08 November 09 12:54 GMT (UK) »
I've just searched on FreeBmd for all regsitrations with John Morgan as first names - there are 2493 of them - so not uncommon. It could be that Morgan was his birth surname and he added Butler later which could explain why he can't be found before the 1901 census.  Couple of possible John Morgan births registered Llandovery in the right period.

 :-\
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Valda

  • Global Moderator
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 16,160
    • View Profile
Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 08 November 09 13:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi

An illegitimate start in life does not preclude John from working hard and establishing himself as a draper if he had the business acumen. In consequence he would put his own son's life and prospects on a firm footing. Or Claud himself was the entrepreneur in the family.

There are 12 John Morgan birth registrations in Carmarthenshire between 1870 and 1871.

The Martin Butler marrying in the Swansea area in 1873 may very well have been Irish in origin and may not have remained in Wales.


Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk