Author Topic: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family  (Read 7383 times)

Offline MalNZ

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 07 November 09 11:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi

It's now the weekend after a hectic week - ready to go on holiday for a week starting Sunday. Will be incommunicado for that time.

Other than Margaret James there seems to be no contact between other members of the two families.  It is very nice to have the details so as to be able to say that and could not have done so without your help.

Now to a David Thomas and his adversaries.
He was a student at Ystrad Meurig for a short time  (1824-5) and in 1821 when in Cardigan he was a winner of a Welsh prize competing against James Williams Morris also of Ystrad Meurig school, and James was being taught there by his older brother-in-law David Williams, nephew of Thomas Williams and Margaret nee James..  (PS I slipped up by using Evan Williams instead of Thomas Williams (they were brothers) in my last posting - just too too many common names!). That David Thomas went on years later to become a competitor for the wardenship of Llandovery with the formidable academic the Venerable Archdeacon John Williams of Edinburgh Academy - another relative.

It is the daughter of the above David Williams and wife  Lucy Morris who emigrated to NZ (after marriage to her cousin once removed ( David Theodore Williams)).  A really mixed up family. We have letters and a photo of her taken in the 1870-80's. David Theodore was also at the Edin. Acad  for a short time.

The wife of the Ven. Williams is  Mary Evans, only daughter of Thomas Evans of Llanilar.  There are no details in the NZ family records of this marriage (?in Lampeter) and of her family, but  the marriage took place presumably some time before the birth, probably in 1823, of  Jane Eliza, the first of six daughters.

Another problem is seen the 1841 census for Lewis Edward William Morris, brother of James above. He was a solicitor in Carmarthen (census at Mt Pleasant, Llangunnor, Llandre).  I am presuming that Rebecca and Catherine are his sisters. But more important, who are the parents of the two Williams's,  Sarah and Jane?

Must go - it is getting late - midnight - and there is a 4 hour drive through the mountains tomorrow.  Will be in touch again next Saturday/ Sunday NZ time.

Cheers

Mal_NZ
Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,393
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 07 November 09 23:17 GMT (UK) »
hmmm.. not really sure what you're looking for here. Will have another read tomorrow when I'm less tired.

Possible marriage?
John Williams (clerk) of Lampeter married Mary Evans of Llansantffraid 10/8/1821

clerk in this context normally means clerk in holy orders.

Have a safe journey!

 :D
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,393
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 08 November 09 11:26 GMT (UK) »
presuming is a dangerous thing to do with family history. The Catherine Morris you refer to on the 1841 census is in a separate household within Mount Pleasant and is enumerated as a servant which is a little unlikely for a sister of Lewis. The 2 Williams are also in this separate household and servants. There is a / to show the end of household next to John's name

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~census/1841_transcription_hints.htm

Rebecca is a sister and regular visitor by the looks of it - or at least at census time

1851 Mount Pleasant HO107/2472 folio 134 pg 1
Lewis Morris head mar 49 attorney at law b. Cards, Aberystwyth
Sophia wife 45 b. town of Carmarthen
Rebecca sister 50 b. Aberystwyth
William son 13 b. Carmarthen
Charles Edward son 9 b. Mount Pleasant in Llangunnor
John son 11 b. Carmarthen
Margaret Thomas 57 general servant b. Kidwelly
Jane Thomas 22 general servant b. Kidwelly
Ann Thomas 22 genreal sedrvant b. Carmarthen

1861 Mount Pleasant RG9/4134 folio 12 pg 18
Lewis Morris head mar 61 Solicitor Registrar(?) of County Court of Glamorgan (at Swansea) b. Cards, Llanbadarn fawr
Sophia wife 52 b. Carmarthen St Peter
William H son 23 articled clerk b. Carmarthen St Peter
John son 22 undergrad Jesus College Oxford b. Carmarthen St Peter
Rebecca visitor 63 private property b. Llanbadarnfawr
Anne Jones 50 servant b. Carms, Mydrim
Jane Thomas 30 servant b. St Peters
Elizabeth Woolf 18 servant b. St Peters
Harriet Harries 40 mantua maker b. St Peters

The IGI batches for Llanbadarnfawr and Aberystwyth don't go back far enough to look for baptisms of the Morris family. The parish records are held in the record office and  the National Library in Aberystwyth. Pity I didn't know a couple of months ago when I was in the library searching again, and in vain, for my Thomas family.

Lewis Morris married Sophia Hughes at Carmarthen St Peter's 25/10/1830

children of the couple appear in IGI batch C059251 for Carmarthen St Peter
Lewis Morris born 6/12/1831, bp 4/1/1832, died 21/4/1832
Lewis born 23/1/1833 bp 25/2/1833
Sophia bp 20/3/1835 died 26/5/1836
William Hughes  bp 4/1/1837
John bp 17/5/1839
Charles Edward  bp 1/10/1841
 
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,393
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 08 November 09 12:10 GMT (UK) »
if you search on 'Lewis Morris' as exact phrase here

http://www2.swansea.gov.uk/_info/cambrian/default.asp

you'll get various notices that refer to his family and professional life. An 'all words' search for Rebecca Morris finds her death notice and gives their father as William.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline MalNZ

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 12 November 09 04:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Just back, could not resist a check. Will tackle your references tomorrow and be back on Saturday - also gotta deal with the garden weeds!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers

Mal_NZ
Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire

Offline MalNZ

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 15 November 09 09:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Got all the data in and then went off at a tangent - into Prytherch's also mentioned in that same will. Then found another generation of the Williams's out of Chepstow (Williams of Cardigan married into Williams of Chepstow - took me 2 years to sort that one out - all because the Cardigan Williams had a holiday house near Chepstow!).

One that has been hassling me for some time is:-

William Williams, born probably in Ystrad Meurig.
Curate at Fishguard. Rector of Llanstinan 1773-1786. Helped by David jnr on leaving the school at Ystrad Muerig. Replaced by a John Williams as Rector in 1787.

Became Chaplain and Confidential Secretary to Commodore (later Admiral Sir) Robert Kingsmill, till his death in 1786.

He may be the same as William Williams, s of David of Lledrod, Jesus Coll. matric. 1782 aged 28 (Alum. Oxon.) thus born in 1754 but this conflicts with the statement that William was an elder brother of David jnr (b. 1751 see obit. Gent. Mag.).  This is all that I have on him.

Looking at other wills now - and have another thread

Cheers

Mal_NZ
Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire

Offline MalNZ

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 13 September 11 11:35 BST (UK) »
Hi,

False leads, off at tangents, up and down garden paths, “google distractions” – and finally – over the moon.

The story of two names.

After some time and many diversions the details in the deed (see start of thread) of Margaret Williams are now partially understood.  Working first from the data given in a deed of 1851 that noted the distribution of her residual estate (CRWTMAWR  deeds #1398) no indications of the relationships of the individuals are given. All had to be found and the first results were quite uninformative. It turns out that she was not a member of the James or Davies families but the only daughter of Rees Prytherch of Cymynys and his cousin Mary Prytherch of Cwncdeiliog, and ggggrandaughter of Rees Prytherch (1630-1699).  David James is named in the deed living in ‘Erwballie’ and he appears in the 1851 census living in ‘Errwrbailey’. It is through him the puzzle was almost solved – with thanks to Osprey for this lead into the James family. Only later did I find the will of 1843 (probate granted 30 Jan 1850 and somehow missed in searches last year), and this gave certainty to the relationships. The persons named in the deed are not mentioned in the will but they are as the “children of my deceased first cousins the late Mr Morgan Price, the late Mr Benjamin James, the late Mr Rees Prytherch, the late Mr Daniel Prytherch, the late Mrs Letitia Price, ……., the late Mr Evan Williams Dysgwlfa …. the late Mrs Morgan of Stafowg[unreadable] as shall be living at the time of my decease” . Also mentioned are “my cousins” Mary and Elizabeth Prytherch.  Some others mentioned in the deed are still to be researched although they are perhaps beyond the limits of the Williams family in Ystradmeurig and descendants in NZ and, judging by the Rootschat (Carmarthenshire) threads, the Prytherch family forms another great complex. 

Margaret Prytherch and Thomas Williams (a banker of Aberystwyth) were married on or about the 13 August 1800 according to the marriage settlement.  Margaret was then aged 28 and Thomas 45. There were no children.  She is also a descendant of the Williams’s in the Lanfairarybryn area through her grandmother Anne Williams, wife of Rowland Prytherch.

But before this settlement was found, the following created much hassle and waste of time and resources.

Two submissions to the LDS database have persons with these surnames marrying on 4 Aug 1827 at Lanfairarybryn, Carmarthenshire  – one couple being Thomas and Margaret, the other Thomas and Mary.  One of the deep pitfalls of the familysearch database when no source other than that of the submitter is given. Another problem also to be solved is “Margaret Williams of Dysgwlfa cottage co. Carm, spinster” (as noted in the deed).  In the will is “Evan Williams of Dysgwlfa”. Perhaps this Evan was Margaret Prytherch’s  brother-in-law and  publisher of Welsh books in London but who is the “spinster”.
Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire

Offline MalNZ

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #16 on: Friday 30 December 11 07:55 GMT (UK) »
Another piece in the puzzle.

William Williams (?1747-1786), one of the three brothers of "Y Hen Syr", Ystradmeurig.

He is first known as a curate at Fishguard where he is helped by his younger brother David. William became Rector of Llanstinan  (Pembrokeshire) in 1773. He apparently had an “unfortunate” marriage but whether he had children is not known. He gained a chaplaincy in the Royal Navy and served with Admirals  Montague and Arbuthnot, and lastly was Chaplain and confidential secretary to Commodore (later Admiral Sir) Robert Kingsmill.  It is not known whether William was with Kingsmill in his South American campaign during the American War of Independence.  At some time he left the Navy and from 11/10/1781 to his death in 1786 was curate at St Mary’s, in Reading, Berkshire. There are no known descendants.

Any details of his marriage and naval record would be most welcome.

On leaving Ystradmuerig his younger brother David, at age 16 (1767)  taught the family of a methodist widow at "Maesycrydie".   Who might she be (?Davies), and where is this place?
He then went to Fishguard, helped his brother, and later matriculated at Jesus College, Oxford in 1779 aged 28.  Are there any records which might indicate his activity in the intervening years?

Cheers and happy New Year

MalNZ
Williams, Cardiganshire
Morris, Cardiganshire
Evans, Cardiganshire

Offline Huwhogmanaymelchett Edwards

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Williams_Aberystwyth & James family
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 28 January 17 19:03 GMT (UK) »
Margaret James of Llanilar sounds like one of my ancestors. Is she the Margaret James (b 1823) who married Evan Edwards as his second wife, and produced Thomas Edwards, my great grandfather, in 1859?