Author Topic: Translation of Coetia **complete**  (Read 5191 times)

Offline netgrrl79

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • RIP Horace Chambers ~ 14.12.1916-12.06.2010
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 22 November 09 15:04 GMT (UK) »
By jove, she's got it !

Hehe, helps living near the area in question!
WRY - Chambers, Burgin, Green, Bradley, Jefferson, Bates, Widdowson, Vickers; DUR - Brennan; LKS - Conway, McGunnigal; KEN - Harrison; GLA - Thomas, Jones; STI - Conway; SSX - Coleman, Freeman, Jefferson; NTT - Jefferson, Chambers; DBY - Chambers, Smith; NBL - Harrison; TIP - Conway

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Rah1980

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 22 November 09 15:26 GMT (UK) »
Where you from netgirl, if you don't mind me being curious  :)
Flintshire Parry, Price, Lloyd, Jones, Williams, Roberts, Ellis, Holland and Davies. Mostly from Brynford area.
Denbighshire Hannam, Evans
Scotland Clark, Duff, Ferrier, Cruikshanks, Robertson, Anderson, Mciver, Finlayson, Hodge, Galloway and Barrie
Midlands Shaw, Davenport, Skidmore, Ball
Ireland Mccaffery

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline netgrrl79

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • RIP Horace Chambers ~ 14.12.1916-12.06.2010
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 22 November 09 15:44 GMT (UK) »
Heh, now this is where it gets complicated ;-) I was born in Chester, of English parents, but lived from birth until the age of 18 in Flintshire - 0-8 in Deeside, then 8-18 on the Denbighshire/Flintshire border, and have a Welsh middle name, after one of my mother's cousins. I studied Welsh to A-level, and have one Welsh grandparent. After university (in Lancashire) I returned to my parental home, then moved to the English side of the border in 2007 (tho I always see it as living in No Man's Land - turn right at the bottom of the road "Welcome to Chester", turn left "Croeso i Gymru"! Towards the end of summer last year I returned to Wales when I moved in with my OH (and he's not Welsh, he's from Leics via Essex lol!)

The upshot of all of this is that I class myself as English, but vote for Plaid Cymru in Welsh elections, and at such a point in time as I might have children, I intend to raise them bilingually, wherever I am living at the time!

Sporting-wise... I suppose the best example I can give of this was in my time at University - watching the Six (or was it still Five back then?) Nations Rugby in the Student Union - Wales v England... all the red shirts one side of the bar, the white shirts the other side and me in the middle thinking "I couldn't give a stuff who wins, I just want a good match!"

Katie
WRY - Chambers, Burgin, Green, Bradley, Jefferson, Bates, Widdowson, Vickers; DUR - Brennan; LKS - Conway, McGunnigal; KEN - Harrison; GLA - Thomas, Jones; STI - Conway; SSX - Coleman, Freeman, Jefferson; NTT - Jefferson, Chambers; DBY - Chambers, Smith; NBL - Harrison; TIP - Conway

Offline Rah1980

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 22 November 09 15:58 GMT (UK) »
Lol  ;D  thanks for the detailed reply, if i ever get round to finding someone to have kids with i hope they will grow up with a better grasp of the language than me  ::)
Flintshire Parry, Price, Lloyd, Jones, Williams, Roberts, Ellis, Holland and Davies. Mostly from Brynford area.
Denbighshire Hannam, Evans
Scotland Clark, Duff, Ferrier, Cruikshanks, Robertson, Anderson, Mciver, Finlayson, Hodge, Galloway and Barrie
Midlands Shaw, Davenport, Skidmore, Ball
Ireland Mccaffery

Offline hobyderidando

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #13 on: Monday 23 November 09 00:59 GMT (UK) »
A very interesting discussion about coetia.  Here is a bit more information about this word which is found mostly in the old Sir y Fflint / Flintshire.

Historian Neobard Palmer's reference to coetia, from the year 1910, which netgrrl79 came across is instructive, but in fact he wasn’t quite right with his interpretation of it as ‘wood-field’.

It simply means field, and is to be found in comprehensive Welsh dictionaries (which are scarce) as coetgae.  (It is included in Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru / The University of Wales Dictionary of the Welsh Language, which appeared in 61 parts beteen 1950 and 2002, and is available for a mere 350 pounds from the Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru / The University of Wales Press!)

http://www.uwp.co.uk/acatalog/1806.html

In South Wales it is pronounced coica, in the north-west as coecia, and in the north-east as coetia, coetie, cwitie, and cwetgie.

In the south coetgae is often seen in place names misspelt as Coed Cae or Coedcae.

The Welsh word for field is “cae” and originally meant “hedge, thing which encloses” (the meaning it has in the 1620 Welsh Bible).  It is in fact related to the Germanic root hag- which has given English hedge, hawthorn, and (from Dutch) The Hague.

With the word coed (= wood) prefixed, the result is (coed + cae) = (coetgae). This is “stakes or a hedge used to enclose an area”. Later it came to mean the area enclosed itself – the field. 

In one Flintshire place name it occurs as ‘field’ when translated – Coetia Butler, or Butlersfield. In another Flintshire name it is used as a synonym of cae – Coetia Llys, which is alternatively Cae Llys (from coetgae’r llys, cae’r llys, both meaning “the field of the court”) (or “of the bilberries”, if the second word is a misspelling for llus). 

More information at:
http://www.kimkat.org/amryw/1_vortaroy/geiriadur_cymraeg_saesneg_BAEDD_ci_1675e.htm

Coetia-mawr is thus "Big Field", and Coetia-mawr Bach would be "Little Coetia-mawr [farm]".

Offline Rah1980

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #14 on: Monday 23 November 09 08:37 GMT (UK) »
That was very indepth thank you, I still think it a little odd that a house down the road was called Coetiau Mawr Bach, although perhaps orginally the house had something to do with farm, but I can'y find any trace of it on the census' and dating way way back the house actually used to be a pub, although what it was called the family don't know as it must have been before 1840. By the time my Taid grew up in the property in the 1920's the house had dropped it's Mawr part and it came as a complete surprise to my mum to know that it was orginally called Coetia Mawr Bach like the big farm up the road which we then discovered had been farmed between abt 1840 - 1900 by by my Taids great grandparents (which was odd because he knew of them as he knew his parents were second cousins and both his parents were grandchildren for the people who ran the farm). Incase anyone knows of the area my mum says Coetia Mawr Farm is now the pet cemetry in Brynford and Coetia Mawr Bach has it would appear taken the name of the bungalow it adjourns which my great grandfather built called Delfryn. Funninly enough I don't know what that means either! Thanks for everyones help  ;D

Sarah
Flintshire Parry, Price, Lloyd, Jones, Williams, Roberts, Ellis, Holland and Davies. Mostly from Brynford area.
Denbighshire Hannam, Evans
Scotland Clark, Duff, Ferrier, Cruikshanks, Robertson, Anderson, Mciver, Finlayson, Hodge, Galloway and Barrie
Midlands Shaw, Davenport, Skidmore, Ball
Ireland Mccaffery

Offline netgrrl79

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • RIP Horace Chambers ~ 14.12.1916-12.06.2010
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #15 on: Monday 23 November 09 08:40 GMT (UK) »
Delfryn I think would be 'pretty hill'... anyone feel free to correct me ;-)
WRY - Chambers, Burgin, Green, Bradley, Jefferson, Bates, Widdowson, Vickers; DUR - Brennan; LKS - Conway, McGunnigal; KEN - Harrison; GLA - Thomas, Jones; STI - Conway; SSX - Coleman, Freeman, Jefferson; NTT - Jefferson, Chambers; DBY - Chambers, Smith; NBL - Harrison; TIP - Conway

Offline taidgazacaz

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 08 December 09 21:38 GMT (UK) »
Hello again Sarah,

Do you know where "Coetiau Mawr" is, or was? I've found it on the first issue OS map, and by comparing with Google maps, aerial view, I think I can pin it down precisely.

Haven't found the "Bach" version though!

Tecwyn :)
Savage, Hoskins, Wigley, Edwards, German, Jacks

Offline Rah1980

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Translation of Coetia **complete**
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 08 December 09 21:52 GMT (UK) »
I believe some part of it was where the pet cemetry is now, in Brynford, next to the golf club, before you go under the a55 and get to the village of brynford, i know it was orginally 100 acres but have no idea in which direction, is the old map you are looking at it online would love a link to it if possible. The bach version is up the road, orginally it was just a small property but it did have a small plot of land at the back, i think going back it was the first property on the way into the village after the Llyn y mewn (however you spell it) pub before they built the new bungalows. I think Coetia Bach is called by Delfryn now used to be a seperate property next door but has now been knocked into to make it bigger.

Thanks Tecwyn  :)
Flintshire Parry, Price, Lloyd, Jones, Williams, Roberts, Ellis, Holland and Davies. Mostly from Brynford area.
Denbighshire Hannam, Evans
Scotland Clark, Duff, Ferrier, Cruikshanks, Robertson, Anderson, Mciver, Finlayson, Hodge, Galloway and Barrie
Midlands Shaw, Davenport, Skidmore, Ball
Ireland Mccaffery